Comments on Intelligent design (part 2)

This is an argument I have come up against many times, along with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
It seems that no matter how many times their theories are disproved, they still decide to use them.
Latin_lover [Email], 18.05.2005, 11:05pm link
Next time some fundy mentions the second law of thermodynamics, try asking them to define it ...
Tim [Home], 18.05.2005, 11:18pm link
you kinda lost me on the point of the topic, but thats probably becuase i have a stomach ache.

yeah life is incredibly complex, more complex then this book that some people try to sue to justify their homicidal/ homophobic/ racist slurs.

the earth will always be more complex then this god who was peiced together by other religions.

as evolution goes (trying to clear things up for the theorietically confused) your granddad wasn't an ape or a chimp named fred. down the long line of life, a group of chimps (or something similar. not totally accurtate, i know) eventually started needing mroe complex tools and such to do what they do best. slowly through the breaking down of genes and random mutation, the geneome that survived was the one that traded in physical might for intellect. this process kept continuing until humans were made. the only thing to discredit this goerge bush. he traded in physical strength and intellect for what? an easily moldable mind?

another thing to clarify: evolution doesn not mean improvement. it means adaptation, the life forms ultimate defense mechanism. it jsut takes a lttle longer to lock and load.

dont beleive me when i say chimps are stronger? a three-foot nothing chimp can arm wrestle an athlete and win. they are frikkin strong.

somewhat confused by what i'm trying to say, my info. may not be accurate. if so, correct me. i just saved my math grade in two hours, finished my fat-ass art project, and ate an incredibly bad hotdog.

i'm entitled to have blown a few mental circuits today.
CJ , 18.05.2005, 11:20pm link
The silly part of it all is that the christians can not interpret their suroundings without value judgements.

What I mean is they will tell you "do you think something as beautiful and wonderful as the earth just happened?".
Its pretty and wonderful so it MUST be gods work.


My first question is who said it was beautiful and wonderful. The earth is a process of evolution. By default things that can survive here will likely do so and things that can't probably won't. Its neither pretty or ugly, good or bad. Its just a delicate system that grants some creatures life and some death.

As such it is no suprise that people "fit in" based on the way the earth is structured. The fact that you like what you see when you open your eyes is no proof of intelligent design.

Some how the godie types feel that simply because the world works the way it does is proof that it was designed that way. There is a plan in every stone and star, every drop of water is planned and, the best part, all for ME!!!!

That is simply absurd.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 18.05.2005, 11:37pm link
It is all reflected neatly in their rebuttal of the atheist eye argument; they see a fabulously complex organ that must have sprang into life all at once, we see a complex organ that started out as some photosensitive skin cells and gradually became more complicated. Their inability to comprehend scientific answers to their "flaws in evolution", in my experience makes them much harder to debate with.
Latin_lover [Email], 19.05.2005, 1:13am link
evolution is the way to go. we've already created the sparks of life. a man used an expirement to simulate earths early atmosphere, and when he added electricty to simulate a lightning strike, presto! a few days later, he found sludge in the atmosphere beaker. upon closer examination, he found amino acids like the ones that are in DNA or wahtever contained in the sludge. life is complex, but not complex enough to require a "All powerful" deity.
CJ , 19.05.2005, 1:33am link
P.s has any1 here heard of the LOAD OF RELIGOUS BULLFUCK called chick.com? the one where witches worship satan and buddhists are part of humanity hating mob? if you could give the writer a swift kick in the ass, do so. he/she is clearly the worst kind of bible thumper you can find anywhere.

this is typical of christians who can't face the fact their religion is outdated and can no longer save them. they're afraid. and they should be. they have compitittion now. it's called "wicca" and "buddha" and "atheism"
CJ , 19.05.2005, 3:35am link
Evolution is best exampled in christmas tree lighting.

First you have a tree. Pretty simple. Then you start adding lights. One string. Two strings. More and more. Some blink. Some don't. Over and under. Up and down, left and right. Balls and garland. Finally the tree looks great.

Then the problem comes.

When you try to take it down, it is one big, tangled mess. A VERY COMPLEX system. No intelligent design!!!

Evolution is like that. You start with a rock, some water and a few chemicals. Add in a lot of time, a little solar engergy and lightining and suddenly simple changes ultimately create a VERY COMPLEX system.

The complexity of the system is not proof of intelligent design.

THERE IS NO GOD!!!

D
Sierra , 19.05.2005, 4:09am link
The infinite intelligence that permeates everything just happened to exist. Yes, that's true, it has no beginning and no end. It is formless, without boundaries. Why is that so difficult to understand? WHy do you equate this intelligence with the God of the bible? This is the fundemental flaw in all of your arguments. A holy being is without anger, judgement and hatred. God is accessible to all, those who look within will find God.

Christianity:
The kingdom of God is within.
Islam:
Those who know themselves know their maker.

Other world religions say the same thing. Our greatest masters , Buddha, Christ, Krishna all say the same thing, ie. "God is within". Who would you trust? These master's or "ego " dominated voices like Sierra? I'll take the master's any day over the ego dominated hateful "voices" on this website.
Is it your intent Tim, to incite hatred? The reason you post these questions about the existence of God is that you desperately want God in your life. Instead of organized religion, I offer you something different. Read books by Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson, Robert Schueller etc.. Buy the book the course in miracles or take the course. I'm sure it is being offered in England. You have so many options but choose to spend your time and your web-board "hating" people of faith. Why not promote spiritual growth tim. Even Brother Jeff on his website is all for positive spirituality which is what I am for.
Get on the path Tim, God is waiting for you to connect. It's there and available to you anytime you wish to explore it.

Peace brothers.
Mr. X , 19.05.2005, 7:24pm link
Why? Why must this intelligence exist? What would have persuaded it to create a universe? I don't worship my ego alone, but also my superego. We are the beings of highest power that we know of, and I don't know why we have invented a God. Perhaps to make us feel like we are not alone in the universe.
Latin_lover [Email], 19.05.2005, 8:53pm link
Hey X

You said: "A holy being is without anger, judgement and hatred"

Well, if that is true then the christian god is not a holy being. The bible is repleat with tales of his anger. His whole purpose appears to be to sit in judgement.

You pretty much just shot a hole through the entire christian religion.

Its all bullshit. There is no god.

D
Sierra , 19.05.2005, 10:03pm link
The intelligence is just there. It has no beginning or end. Don't you feel it? The force that moves the planet around the sun, the ocean current, the wind, is within you. You know in your heart it's there. I'm only trying to tell you that you, whoever you are, wherever you are, have access to it at all times. We have divine guidance available to us at all times.

I've defined "God". My challenge to you Sierra, is to state what you mean "there is no god", I've asked you before, but you didn't answer. I challenge you not use humanistic judegments when you do this. I await your response.
Mr. X , 19.05.2005, 11:37pm link
New York is a beautiful city. A homeless came on to the train and asked for money and everyone just ignored him. Instead of treating him with disdain, I talked to him, and made him feel like a human being. We are equal cells in this body called humanity. I knew that he was a divine master testing me. He is on the path just like I am. Mother Theresa said " I see Jesus in different shapes and sizes ". I am connected to all human beings and can see the likeness of God in everyone of them.
Mr. X , 19.05.2005, 11:41pm link
If you knew who walked with you everyday, "Fear would be impossible".

God is within!
Seek and you shall find. Ask and you shall receive.
Mr. X , 19.05.2005, 11:44pm link
Mr X you are off your meds again. You knew he was a divine master?? I talked to a homeless person in Washington and he abused me calling me a racist because I didn't give him enough money. You patronised some homeless guy, wasting his time while he could be collecting money, to "make him feel like a human"? I think he probably feels all too human because of his situation
Yahoo , 20.05.2005, 1:11am link
'The force that moves the planet around the sun' Mr. X
So this is your god? This was explained centuries ago (ever heard of Kepler, Bruno, Newton or any of their associates?) and it is taught in high school physics classes. 'the ocean current, the wind'.... Mr. X, your mindset is truly archaic. What century are you living in? All of these supposed mysteries that you allude to have all been thoroughly explained, so do yourself a favour and stop embarrassing yourself - I feel sorry for you, I really do :(.
PA , 20.05.2005, 1:16am link
Thanks for the gifts yahoo, and PA. No need to feel sorry for me. The highest of worship of God is service to mankind.
Mr. X , 20.05.2005, 2:29am link
PA, so you can measure this force, but you still don't understand it. Where does it come from? Don't these questions come up in your mind?
One more question for you. WHere was the iron that is present in my body before I came into the now here from no where. Yahoo, I made a difference to that homeless guy because on NYers just ignored him. He was a nice person to talk to and I took him out for coffee and a bagel. You will find that these homeless people are real human beings who are having a difficult time at the moment. Ignoring them won't make the problem go away. We spend more money on foreign and the space program than sheltering these people. Please support organizations that do this.
Mr. X , 20.05.2005, 3:39am link
Ok X:

"My challenge to you Sierra, is to state what you mean "there is no god", I've asked you before, but you didn't answer."

What I mean is that there is no "god", no diety, to designer of the universe, no invisible man, no allah, nothing. It is a made-up story.

Hows that? Did that make it clear to you?

There is NO GOD.

D
Sierra , 20.05.2005, 6:39am link
Religion is not bullshit. There is a God.
(By the way, I stand by what I told Mr X above; in order to reach the truth one must question EVERYTHING, including one's own set of beliefs and values or lack thereof. I criticised Mr X because his 'argument' was full of holes, not because I don't believe in the reality that is God).
PA , 20.05.2005, 7:13am link
Oh bullshit.

"God" is a silly idea made up by people who A. did not understand the universe and B. were not interested in finding out.

Religion is a panacea for the ignorant and lazy.

Rather than find out why something is, its just gods will. God put it there. Its god plan.....on and on.

Believing in the "reality of god" is another way of saying "I don't understand much about the world and am not interested in knowing".

THERE IS NO GOD.

D
Sierra , 20.05.2005, 7:35am link
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. I know what type of god you are thinking of; the Old Testament, old man with long white beard, sitting in a throne in the sky type of god. What you've described is the manner in which people used to believe, and they did so not because they were 'not interested in finding out', but because they didn't have the means to find out, as we do today.
Perhaps us 'believers' shouldn't use that archaic term 'God' anymore, since it has far too many negative connotations. Supreme intelligence perhaps? Anyway, whatever you choose to call it, at some point somewhere there has to be a reason as to why anything at all exists (as opposed to absolutely nothing), and so far science has not been able to provide any explanations that could be considered satisfactory to account for this. They will tell you, 'well, it all began with the big bang'. Yes, but what caused the 'big bang'? 'Oh, it was a quantum fluctuation in the void of nothingness that existed before there was even time' or something similar, but this then leads on to the question of what the nature of this nothingness, that happened to create our universe, consisted of; ie. what was it's nature, characteristics, properties et cetera. To which he or she may have some other fanciful theory, but no means of proving one way or the other it's veracity.
My point is this: there is only so much that science, as we practice it today, can answer. We are severely restricted by what our 5 senses can reveal, and we have instrumentation to extend these 5 senses further, but the limitations remain. It is the sheer height of hubris to think that our limited science and technology will be able to answer all that there is to answer at any time within the near future, if only because it is far too inflexible to take into account the totally unexpected. For all we know we may be looking in all the wrong places for the answers we seek to the really BIG questions. Maybe philosophy, if not religion, can point the way - who knows?
PA , 20.05.2005, 1:35pm link
PA - yeah, it would be helpful if the term "God" was replaced, it has too many meanings. "Supreme intelligence" is a bit vauge though. Although stating that "there has to be a reason as to why anything at all exists" proves that you've completely missed the point of this post.
Tim [Home], 20.05.2005, 5:57pm link
Bullshit.

We are not limited by our 5 senses. I can not see infra-red for instance, but can use it in every day life. I can detect it.

I can use radio waves, radiation etc, without being able to see or hear them.

The point is that I know these things exist because I can test for them and detect them.

You supreme intelligence is another story.

The god stuff is the bullshit people trowel in when they don't want to face the truth.

Why did the tornado kill my neighbor but noe me? Gods will
Why did my 9 year old drown? God called them home.
Where did the earth come from? God created it.

On and on...

Its all bullshit.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 20.05.2005, 7:21pm link
the big bang was caused when dark energy in our own compacted universe (a golf ball of matter surrounded bya feild of dark energy. HUGE FEILD mind you) collided with another universe, and this imbalance set off the explosion that became the big bang. quantum physics, neat stuff.

to those who are confused, an atheist does not beleive in a supreme being who is all powerful and alimighty. the intelligent design sounds more like the "Q" from star trek, great energy beings bound only by the rules they set for themselves.

i doubt any human can truly comprehend nothignness or infinity. the reason for nothingness is that they'd probably be dead.

i dont beleive in some great suprmeme intelligence. if it did create the earth, it probably just made the things necessary for life, like move a sun over there to warm it, jupiter to suck up meteors... all intelligent design tells me is i'm part of a one hell of a big petry dish.

all a miracle is nowadays is a very unprobable possibility happening. i wouldn't call having a whale fall on me a miracle froma god. sure i'd still think "what the fuck? free willey?" but i wouldn't care then, as i'd be dead

if this suprememe
being though (trying to see this from intelligent design) were to happen to see earth while passing by his perty dishes would probably take a look at us and laugh insanely at our beleifs of a perfect world.

if this intelligent being does exist, it would've most likely have come from the other universe that collided with dark amtter to make our own universe. i figure it tried an expirement or got really lonely and so it decided to take its supreme truck and dump a bunch of supreme things needed for life for his supremem amusement.

the big bang has been proved again and again and again. these supreme beings that "made" the earth didn not exist out of space and time. the only things that exist without matter and mass isa black hole, the ultimate one-way exit of the universe. whatever goes in is forever doomed to be crushed for one hell of long time (does 302765th season of star trek tell you anything on how long LONG is?)
and is then spat out as unrefined random X-rays and radio.

if there was some great supreme being out there, i would not bow before him if he passed by. i might give him a wave, but nothing else. "super, you made us, what up? didja see that baseball game last thrusday? how's mars going?" i wouldn't bow before him or anything. if he wanted us to be bound before his will, we'd all have the collective imagination of a 3-year old. besides.

still beleiving in evolution and finding new insight on the big bang theory (which i beleive in)CJ!!!

post your theories on the bg bang or whatever else you want, i need something to examine.
CJ , 20.05.2005, 10:11pm link
sorry, hit the post button acidentally. i welcome your theories and opinions about the aura thingy. still that tingly feeling of somethings not right, CJ.

THEORIES/ DISAGREEMENTS WELCOME!!!
CJ , 20.05.2005, 10:21pm link
Sierra, you say the same thing over and over again. SHUT UP YOUR PATHETIC MORON. YOUR A TYPICAL BRAINLESS AMERICAN IDIOT.
Tim, is there anything else to talk about?
Timnot4me , 21.05.2005, 12:10am link
I really don;t understand why there must be some overriding intelligence. Why are we unable to accept that things just "are", and can be explained in ways that do not involve an imaginary deity. Of corse, we cannot explain everything through science, and the odds are we never will. But that does not mean that, simply because of our inability to completely comprehend the universe, there must be some omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent THING just sitting there.
As for Mr. X's points on the "soul", sorry to sound so nihilistic, but it doesn't exist. Our minds are a series of electrical impulses in our brains powered by our food, and when we die there is nothing to power these anymore so therefore we are absolutely dead.
While it could be argued that I am failing to see the "spiritual" side of things, that I am applying ruthless logic to things impermeable to logic, I say "bollocks".
Really though, why shoul I believe otherwise until I see some sort of evidence at all otherwise? And that's not being bigheaded, that's just common sense.
Latin_lover [Email], 21.05.2005, 12:13am link
Timnot4me is a british wuss. Part wimp and part pussy.

Go thump your bible you silly jackass.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 21.05.2005, 12:13am link
John 10:34
Is is not written in your law, that I have said, that you are gods?
John

John 14:20
On that day you will know that I am in my father and you in me and I in you.

God is within.

You can manifest into your life anything you want.
Mr. X , 21.05.2005, 12:22am link
Latin_Lover my brother, our life comes from another dimension. Yes there are electrical impulses, they are part of the equation, but there is something beyond all the parts. It's the ghost in the machine that you can't explain, try as hard as you like.
Mr. X , 21.05.2005, 12:25am link
There are no enemies Sierra, just friends you haven't met. You are here in this world to love and to be loved. Yes I agree with you, that GOd is not outside of you. You do want God to be outside of you? Am I correct Sierra? This is why you fail to see GOd and God fails you in the moment you most need God. There are no accidents in this universe. Everyone who comes into your life does so right on time and exits right on time. It's part of the perfection of it all. The universe is perfect.
Mr. X , 21.05.2005, 12:29am link
Not suprised that crap would come out of your mouth. Stop listening to morons like Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh. AMERICAN WOMAN, STAY AWAY FROM ME!!
DON'T NEED YOUR WAR MACHINES AND YOUR GHETTO SCENES.
UK RULES!!!
Timnot4me , 21.05.2005, 1:14am link
SCREW THE US!!!

WHO NEEDS THEM!!
Timnot4me , 21.05.2005, 1:16am link
Are you blind Sierra? I said, quote 'we have instrumentation to extend these five senses further.' I know that we can detect infra-red, ultra-violet et cetera, but tell me - what is light? It sits in the middle of the EM spectrum between the two I mentioned above, and as such the instruments we use to detect these other wavelenghts are merely an extension of our ability to see light.
Tell me something 'Sierra' (or whatever your name is): Why do you keep getting the facts so wrong and chant that silly mantra. 'There is no god, there is no god, there is no god.' Are you a drug-addict with a non-existent social life or something?

There is a God, and I've proven it.
PA , 21.05.2005, 1:51am link
You're spot on Timnot4me - 'Screw the US' The US needs the rest of the world far more than we need it, although they would of course disagree.
Is it just a coincidence that the vast majority of Bible-Bashers come from the US? Could it have something to do with the general level of intelligence over there, and why is it that they are constantly saying 'God bless America'? I have to admit that the existence of the USA would have to count as evidence AGAINST there being a God (or at least a compassionate and benevolent one).

Nevertheless, there is a God (and perhaps a devil too - Bush?)
PA , 21.05.2005, 2:11am link
I'm sorry Mr X., but don;t think there is a "ghost in the machine". I don't think there is an unexplainable entity. For one thing, why would sucha creature exist in a universe otherwise composed entirely of measureable (or if not, then may become measureable) matter and energy. There is no reason behind it. And I simply refuse to accept the whole "faith scenario". It's a no-brainer.
More specifically, are you, Mr X., a believer in BibleGod? If not, then what god do you serve? And how about the afterlife? What are your views on that? I am as yet unsure.

P.S.: I believe we've had the whole US/UK politics debate in the last post. Fun as it was, it would be nice to argue some philosophy and religion...
Latin_lover [Email], 21.05.2005, 5:05am link
Yeah, I found your god... it appeared to me in the chunks of corn in my crap.

How bout all the intellegent people devote som e time to figuring out how the universe works and leave this incoherrent babble to the politicians and philosophers. Eveybody worth a half a cod knows they're pure bullshitters anyway. 'God' cannot be fully proven or disproved so for now, let it be. Whether you listen to either man on the pulpit (the preacher or the professor) is up to you but keep in mind that there is a system at work so immensely complex that we may not be physically capable of understanding it... now or ever. Our physical selves adapt according to what we need to survive. 80% of our brain is dedicated to computations on visual input. Your eyes only 'see' clearly a small patch in the visual field. Our brain puts these pieces together like a patchwork quilt to give us the impression of a whole picture. The existance of optical illusions helps to demonstrate that this is a wholly flawed picture of the actual representation of the world we see. Most, if not all, cannot 'see' the whole picture of the physical world around them... it's too complex. If something changes and people become more wholly aware of their surroundings, this argument will dissappear faster than a government surplus. Think about it.
Jabob [Email], 21.05.2005, 9:31am link
P.S.

(it's late and this might not entirely be coherent:)

A note to CJ: Black holes do have both mass and matter; and they're not exactly a one way ticket anywhere. Black holes 'work' on escape velocity. If your velocity is less than escape velocity, gravity acts upon you to come back to the center of gravity. Throw a ball up in the air with less force than necessary to obtain escape velocity, it comes back down (is forced towards center of gravity). Now making the assumption (a whole other topic) that as far as we know nothing travels faster than the speed of light. If you have a mass so dense that the escape velocity is faster than the speed of light, viola you got a black hole. They can vary in mass and size, and we can tell they're out there because of (besides many other things) how they can refocus light from distant stars around them. Light is an electromagnetic phenomenon exhibiting behavior of both waves and particles. If you pass light through strong electromagnetic fields (magnetic or gravitational) you can change it's direction. Black holes are like anti-crystal balls. Instead of focusing light through it, it bends light around it. Pretty interesting stuff (too bad it has little to do with everyday life, just some neat stuff to wrap your brain around). And black holes aren't the be-all-end-all vacuum cleaners of the universe... they 'evaporate' releasing em radiation (frequencies ranging from x-ray to radio I think). The difficulty that most people have in understanding this is the energy nature of the universe. As far as we can tell, everything is energy in some form or another. Take light... it's made of photons (packets of energy) that sometimes 'look' like particles and sometimes look like waves. blah... blah... blah... gets heady and interesting but not very useful for daily life from here on...


Whenever one studies anyhing, they must remember that everything said and written is being done by a person. People are VERY complex things with motives and emotions that even with extensive study are still not understood. But recognize this. Everybody has a reason to say things. I type this because It's 5 AM and I can't sleep (yet another story). The physics things I said are mearly paraphrase from my physics lectures. I have no ReaL knowledge of whether they are correct in corresponding to the universe or not, but a publisher took the risk to publish the info. Whoever came up with the idea took the risk that it was correct and had other people affirm or deny it's correctness.
A person that exercises religion any religion or the idea of religion in its purest form takes the risk in assuming that whatever they believe in is 'correct' in it's application to the universe. You might joke that the buddhidsts and jews, etc. are gonna be mighty embarrased when whoever comes at the end of the universe. But if you joke about that you must also joke about how a religious person might be embarrased by spending their whole lives dedicated (wholly or partially or superficially) to practicing a set of rules and protocol (organized religion) or ideals in an idea (pure religion) and finding out in death that there is no god, diety, supreme intellegence, supreme taco, or whatever making the whole gig go round. An athiest might be embarrassed by meeting a christian god upon death.

I would people rather discuss faith rather than religion. EVERYBODY has faith - and a knowledge of what the concept attached to the word "faith" means *technically not everybody... some with mental conditions akin ot what most people call insanity don't*. I have faith that the things that I spent time and money studying have some validity in this universe. I have faith that I am not just some bit of information 'floating about somewhere' I have faith in knowing that sometimes I am wrong no matter how dedicated to believing in the correctness of something. I have faith in knowing that the fact that 'just becuse I don't understand something' is not powerful enough to overwhelm the fact that it either exists or doesn't. A lack of understanding of physics or philosophy doesn't mean that they don't exist any more than not knowing what my screen saver says means that - to you - it doesn't exist.


A major beef that I carry with this type of argument is that no side can just let the matter rest. The fact that the argument exists is proof that no side is correct. If god knocks on my door, sorry 'science' loses. If we, as a species, begin to grasp a coherent understanding of the principals of the fundamental patterns in our natural universe, god takes a back seat.

I had more, but the room's spinning now... need sleep.
Jabob [Email], 21.05.2005, 10:32am link
Yeah, but there is one BIG problem with all of that.

Even though there is no proof of god (since anyone with a brain knows it is a farce) we still have religous dogma rammed down our throats whether we like it or not.

If you want to have FAITH that is your business, but until the bible thumpers can PROVE that god exists I say we make them tear down all the churches and remove their insidous dogma from every aspect of our lives.

I am not forcing anyone to attend big-bang classes. I do not announce that this is a "evoloutionist nation". I don't knock on peoples doors, offer them a free copy of "A brief history of time" and ask them if they would like to sit and discuss quantum mechanics and I don't build observatories evey other block and try to suggest that people should come by once a week to look at the stars.

I say until they can prove it the christians should remove themselves from my everyday life, shove their "bible" up their ass and enjoy their "faith" in private.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 21.05.2005, 3:11pm link
With 40 comments and counting I shan't weigh in to this debate, what with the sheer amount of work needed to get up to speed. But all you god-botherers wait til the next post, 'cos I'm back, slightly drunk, and ready to argue!
Ben [Home], 21.05.2005, 5:37pm link
Damn right the US needs the world more than the world needs the US.
Sierra is a pinhead moron from some southern US state where the total IQ < 10.
Listen to shortwave radio and it's full of nut jobs from the US. I get a kick of listening to these mental cases. They sound like "Sierra". I bet you Sierra is a right wing fascist bible thumper.
Timnot4me , 21.05.2005, 6:08pm link
To hell with the US vs. the rest of the world aspect of this b.s. Yeah, listen to shortwave and hear a bunch of rednecks. That's just as akin to 'listen' to the internet and hear a bunch of geeks. The media doesn't change what the person says. It's like when studies from colleges are polled from college kids... it's a smaller population than if you could poll the whole thing. There's no way you could possibly listen to what everybody everywhere says. Also, many smart people know that when they are in the minority, sometimes the most survivable course of action is to keep your mouth shut. It is unfortunate that human nature seems to be such. The US was founded on the basis of tolerance. That basic idea has been whittled away over the years by many politicians and lawmakers who have abided by their personal preferences and the preferences of their constituents. If you get a viral religion in an isolated area (gegrophically or socio-economically) that religion is going to be the dominate force in the relegion. As it currently stands, the US is akin to the old roman empire or great britian when it was imperialistic. There is a huge 'christian' base in most of the country. Probably because of the trade and exposure to other cultures, only the coasts seem to be progressive. There are people from the center of the country that went over to fight in the middle east not because of the 'horrible human indignations' or to 'free' those people. They went to fight because they feared that there were accepted beliefs other than those they themselves held. They believed that if they were 'good god fearing christians' that they were doing good by making their hand part of the hand of the army bringing 'justice' to the region. How is this any different than when the romans invaded the homelands of the vikings. "Hey I got it... they're different so we'll 'enlighten' them and if they don't convert/ally/bow down, we'll just kill them". The problem is not that the religion exists, but that it can't seem to peacifully co-exist with counter acting beliefs. There is no true tolerence, even though that's what ends up getting preached most of the time. Well fine... I'm not christian, don't believe in god or whatever. That doesn't mean that you should try to convert me. Even if you succede, I'd be just 'going through the motions' as previously discussed. Just like a person seeking council in any other form, unless the change is internelly motivated, it's still just going through the motions. Forcing a person to act a certain way is not healthy. Wanting to do something and simply doing something because you fear something if you don't are two completley different things, but they do have the same effect. If I'm 'good' because I want to be than great. If I act 'good' because I fear some eternal damnation then shame on me for not wanting to be 'good' without feeling threatened. Even as I write this, I know that my statements could be taken just as ill-recieved as any bible thumper's. But keep in mind I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone. I just enjoy the discussion. I, like Sierra, don't agree with the way that (at least in the US... I don't know about elsewhere because I've never lived elsewhere) major religions, once they reach a certain critical mass size, shift from being a counciling influence to a political social influence. History says how the catholic church is/was the world's largest political body. Religion and government have the same basic function. They dictate what people should and should not do in order to peacefully (most of the time anyway) coexist. My problem is when religion or government interferes when it is not needed. This b.s. about how this country has become a bunch of irresponsible suckwads bothers me. Laws exist for the people that don't know better than to do what they do. Now they've gone too far. There are people actually giving away freedoms just so they wouldn't have to deal with the ajoining personal responsibility.

A note to Timnot4me: I don't know how you can comment or even speculate on the state of Sierra. Do you know him personally? Have you ever met him? I haven't but I make the guess that we share similar views on the world. The debate seems to be mis-aimed. It's my guess that his/her argument takes the heart that whether you believe in god, any god, is up to you. Just don't try to cram your beliefs down his or anyone else's throat. Try actually practicing tolerence. It's rather difficult. One way of doing so is even if you 'know better' let that person be... and on that note....
Jabob [Email], 21.05.2005, 7:17pm link
Ben - don't worry about large numbers of comments - the point always gets lost after the first few anyway.

Welcome back BTW, I've missed your blog!
Tim [Home], 21.05.2005, 9:09pm link
Wait... there was a point to all this in the first place?
Jabob [Email], 21.05.2005, 10:02pm link
Hey Jabob,
read Sierra's posts on how he advocates genocide against Muslims.
The guy is a nut.
Timnot4me , 21.05.2005, 10:06pm link
You're one to talk.....

You give the US shit while living in a country that was proud of the "British Empire".

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

As far as muslims go.....when they stop killing others I will stop advocating killing them.

If you will not this week, the main terrorist towelhead in Iraq this we released a statement saying in effect "Its ok to for muslims to kill innocent muslims if it happens while they are trying to kill non-muslims".

Now thats a hell of a philosophy.

There is no negotiating with people like that. No engaging them economicly, no "respecting them" or leading them to peace.

You simply kill them. Every last one.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 21.05.2005, 11:27pm link
i always thought that a black hole can have size, but not exactly waht one would call amss. but thats what you ge from a CA school.

yeah, i'd be perfectly fine with religions (actually, i already am) as long as they don't attmept to afflict everyone else they meet. i agree with you there jacob. and why is mr.x always saying that "God" has no religion, but is very keen on quoting the bible left and right? I suppose next he'll quote the bibles instructions for selling your daughter and beating your child. it's all in there. i will not worship a supposedly superior being that demeans women, beats children drowns the world cuz he messed up, and is emotionally controlled. if there is a god (as someone posted the whatif earlier) i will not suck gods holy cock to get to heaven.
CJ , 21.05.2005, 11:59pm link
is sierra like the next hitler or something? he seems very keen on wasting the first man witha turben he sees. oh, and sierra did post earlier he's from california, near hte sierra mountians or something like that (am i right?)

anywho, the US needs to get off its fat ass and do something! you know how we're always bitching about the dangers of nuclear power? we burn coal, and that produces more radiation than a nuclear plant does! the people that say nuclear power is a danger to everything around it are uneducated and ignorant. c'mon america, open your eyes.
CJ , 22.05.2005, 12:03am link
... BULLSHIT !!! ...
Tiny Monster [Email][Home], 22.05.2005, 2:57am link
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
Ben [Home], 22.05.2005, 3:09am link
omg, im so jealous of your cat!!! wait...were like, smelling your cat or something?

did you pick up your cat and like et high off it? O_o-hmm?

and who's the tiny monster? and how did he get out of my closet?

everything is in my closet: presidents, socks, gates of hell...

"MOM! THE DEMONS ARE COMING OUT OF MY CLOSET AGAIN!"

"GET THE BROOM!"
CJ , 22.05.2005, 3:17am link
Yes, although Ralph Wiggums has uttered many, um, wise things... what does that have to do with this? Oh wait... the answer's 42.
Jabob [Email], 22.05.2005, 6:58am link
42, the answer to life. hitchhikers guide to the galxy, great book :)

the leprechauns tell me to burn things!-ralph wiggum
CJ , 22.05.2005, 9:41pm link
CJ, I only quoted John to make my point that God is within. Did you read what the statements? I've been promoting spiritual growth, not religious dogma. A lot of what I say comes from the course in miracles. Everytime God is mentioned you immediately assume the person is talking about the bible.

Christianity: The kingdom of God is within you.

Islam:
Those who know themselves know their God.

What does this tell you?
Mr. X , 22.05.2005, 10:08pm link
Well, what it tells me is that religion is bullshit!!!

I know myself pretty well and I would never worship anything or anyone. If there is a god he would know this too(since I know myself that way) and thus he would not need worship (he made me this way).

He would be ok if I bulldozed the church(s) and built parks and skating rinks.

This would give "god" back one day in seven (he wouldn't need to sit in on all that worship) so he could fine-tune his universe to stop all hte pain and suffering.

Pretty soon we and he could all go our separate ways!!!

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 23.05.2005, 1:55am link
Sierra

Who invented the concept of "friendly fire" or "it's okay to kill muslim civilians as long as you are trying to kill muslim 'insurgents'". The US has killed plenty of innocents in its holy war, but because they were wearing "towels" on tehir heads they don't count I guess.

CJ did you hear the stories of attacks on Sikhs in the US following 9-11? They were wearing turbans, therefore they were taken out by some anti-terrorism measures (to wit, paranoia, ignorance).
Yahoo , 23.05.2005, 1:58am link
Yahoo,

"Who invented the concept of "friendly fire" or "it's okay to kill muslim civilians as long as you are trying to kill muslim 'insurgents'"......

That was the statement release by (whats his name) Zarkawai (the Iraqi insurget) this past week. Here is the link: http://author.voanews.com/burmese/2005-05-19-voa1.cfm

There is only one way to deal with people like that.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 23.05.2005, 4:47am link
ok mr.x, jsut to avoid future confusions, i do not beleive in an diety of any form like the christian god or the islamic god. they're all in the same boat, similar stories, just different places. this god within (i dont like the term god really to describe it. too drastic and primitive), its my mentality, and it does not need a bible or a koran or holy scriptures as a users manual.

and the instructions for selling your daughter into sex slavery can be found in Exodus 21:1 to whatever the hell.

and yeah yahoo, that sounds like typical military paranoia. i wonder if i wear a towel on my head if the police will arrest me... ought to try that tommorow... but yeah, alot of what goerge bush says about osama bin laden is just a way to convince america to throw their dollar bills to his goal of eradicateing a people who are different from him. its all paranoia and propaganda.

did i post something earlier to bring up the whole turban thingy you said? i probably lost track, but then again, its the end of the school year. i dont have to pay attention! :)

IDIOT AMERICA, CJ
CJ , 23.05.2005, 5:05am link
Schools out for summer CJ!
Yahoo , 23.05.2005, 5:49am link
Tim; glad to see a new thread. I have a hard time with the idea of god ( silly word dog spelled backwords)as an Infinite complex being. I had a science teacher that told me that there is nothing in the universe that is constant, its only the process inself that is constant. I guess thats about as close to the idea of the eternal nature of god that I can get my mind around, reminds me of the saying " you have to be out of your mind to Know God".
william , 23.05.2005, 5:24pm link
Maybe thats what Jesus meant when he said "we are in the world but not of the world"
william , 23.05.2005, 5:32pm link
Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:

"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).
Eternal_damnation , 24.05.2005, 2:05am link
The evidence against evolution.

http://www.megabaud.fi/~lampola/english/17evidences.html
Eternal_damnation , 24.05.2005, 2:07am link
Looked at it. Boy was that a silly bunch of bullshit.

Damn. Still laughing here.

Boy are you our of your mind.

D
Sierra , 24.05.2005, 3:40am link
That site can't be for f***ing real. "And in conclusion, the bible says so!"


MMAAAAAAAAANNNNN wrote the bible you fuckwits! Lots of MEN! Over many years.

I must admit I particularly am enchanted by the irrefutable logic of the dinosaurs being able to fit on the ark. I would like to know if any evolutionists out there would be saying "for dinosaurs to have lived at the same time as man they would have had to fit on the ark". Priceless. Funnier that the Eurovision contest!
Yahoo , 24.05.2005, 5:51am link
I god created man, why are so many of his perfect little automatons (like Eternal) so fucking stupid?

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 24.05.2005, 6:31am link
dude, whenever i try to get to that website damnation bitches about, i get soemthing in german. have any of you ever read (or heard) kissing hank's ass? hilarious, chrsitianity in a nutshell!

etenral damnation makes me laugh. THINK FOR YOURSELVES! if this "god" didn't want us to question him, he wouldn't have given us mouths! come to think of it, if god hadn't intended for all these bad things over the past few millenia to happen, he wouldn't have meant for mankind at all! its people like eteranl damnation that make me laugh because they think they need an out of date book written by schizophrenic people (interesting theory we had a at school once)that tells them its OK to sell yuor daughters into sex slavery! why are you even here damnation? trying to "save or souls from hell?" not gonna happen, you'd have as much chance as convincing the atheists here that your god is the only way to salvation as you would have convincing a biologist that a carrot is a superior form of life.

"if god has spoken, why doesn't the world beleive?" -some little girl who's name i forgot.

i will not suck god's holy cock to get to heaven. would you?
CJ , 24.05.2005, 10:59pm link
i typed in the whole entire address, but the moment i get there, it either givces me "page cannot be displayed" or something like GERMAN!

throw your questions about evolution, throw em at my balls, i'll catch them and throw them back.

oh, and yahoo, its still school here at california :(
CJ , 24.05.2005, 11:05pm link
I have created a blog link for your site, Religion is bullshit.com, I think it is some of my best banner work in parody..LOL..send me an email so we can talk outside of this forum
Reverend Jeremiah [Email][Home], 25.05.2005, 12:25am link
http://www.megabaud.fi/~lampola/english/17evidences.html

I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION. WHERE ARE ALL THE INTERMEDIATE SPECIES?
BUY THE BOOK, TITLED THE 'COLLAPSE OF THE EVOLUTION'.
EVOLUTION HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN.
eternal_damnation , 25.05.2005, 12:44am link
CJ,
READ THE END OF THE BOOK , WE WIN. GOD IS NOT BOUND BY YOUR HUMANISTIC STANDARDS OF JUSTICE.
GO STUDY FOR YOUR EXAMS. HOPE YOU FAIL THEM ALL.
eternal_damnation , 25.05.2005, 12:47am link
Eternal, it's been proven far better than the teh assertion that the Bible is Gods word.

As for intermediate species, try looking in the mirror sometime.
Yahoo , 25.05.2005, 1:14am link
eternal idiocy, the bible says that god made us out of mud. last i checked, i bleed quite easily. the evidence is all around us. evolution is becoming less a theory each day, and more a fact. new evidence left and right is all around us! by the way, i passed biology with an A+, in my physics class i got the highest grade (yeah, im a nerd) and my earth science grade has been at a steady A (weather never was my strong point. it's rain, it's wet. whats there left to know?)

evolution is indeed a theory. theory: an idea that corresponds to current knowledge. evolution is a theory that has been gaining quite a crap laod of evidence. i would like you to note our close relation to the chimpanzee. they have expressions, we have expressions. they live in grups, we live in groups. social interaction is important for them as well as us, and we both use tools. and the grand finale: THUMBS! really cute things. you know, if we didn't have thumbs i bet you'd have one hell of a time trying to pick big things up, like a backpack. we share all these traits, and evolutions premises are currently going on through out the world. another thing: random mutaion: evolution isn't very predictable. the random mutation that survives survived fora reason, i.e. its mutation helped it survive. lets take our frined timmy the chimp: timmy's family is living in a forest where his friends are being eaten left and right by psychopathic jaguars. a few hundred years down the line, his family steadily bcomes smarter and learns new things. they evnetually maske spears with which they fight off the nasty jaguar. the mutation? sheer strasngth for intellect. chmips are smart, but stronger. humans are quite weak, but rather smart. we survived becuase we learn how to manipulate things to our advantage. thus, our gene was passed on till poof! napolean! poof! einstein! and poof!me! :)

i beleive in evolution, not an out of date book that can no longer save us. i challenge you now eternal ignorance, to read your own bible that you follow like a lost dog.
Exodus 21:1-whatever: instructions for selling your daughter as a slave.

Leviticus: would you considder your wife unclean if she gave birth to your daughter, hmm?

heck, god even says :let us make man in our image! (but wasn't there only one god? and why did this god have to go and make this satan dude?)

and one more question i was kinda wndering someone could clarify for me: if god told adam and eve not to eat the fruit of knowledge, what moron put it there in the first place? surely this all powerful future seeing god would've known his mistakes? no, instead hejumps out from behind a bush and goes "haha, gotcha!"

leave my beleifs to me, you keep your own. i may not agree with your beleifs you don't agree with mine, but i don't care. never eally did care much of what others thought.

gotta prepare for the GSA parade/ prom, toodles!

one antion under the media, CJ
CJ , 25.05.2005, 5:12am link
The bible is a lie. Bible science is a farce. That list of shit eternal refers everyone to is a joke.

The beautiful thing about science is that it admists going in that it does not have all the answers. THAT IS PRECISELY WHY THEY KEEP LOOKING.

The bible on the otherhand claims to have gotten it all right on the first shot when the bible was assembled by me. For proof they include a few passages essentially telling you "yep, we're right".

I laugh at you ETERNAL. You waste your life and your money. The best part is that you gain nothing for all your eforts.

THERE IS NO GOD. The bible is a joke.

D
Sierra , 25.05.2005, 5:43am link
burgerz...mmm. err... anyways, i was wondering another thing...if god made the ten commendments, why did it take a mortal man (jesus) to make the only rule that matters: love thy neighbor. sadly, the most ignored rule there ever was. greatest rule, but still ignored.

eatin' burgerz, CJ
CJ , 26.05.2005, 12:28am link
yep. kinda sad to spend your life screaming at others only to relaize at the last minute you forgot "love thy neighbor as you have loved me" another reason alot of chistians are ahrd to get along with.

get over yourself Eternal, you can't defeat my ofundation in evolution. its a matter me and my friends discuss everyday.

fear my imagination, for it can challenge the gods.
CJ , 26.05.2005, 4:19am link
eternal_damnation said:

"I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE"

I like a challenge. Let's start with lucky 13 from your linked site.It's the one that breaks the 2nd law of thermodynamics you fundies always like to throw around.

Here's a site that explains how the data to your wonderfully informative linked site's claim was erroneously skewed by the YEC crowd and refutes claim 13 beyond doubt.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1986/PSCF9-86VanTill.html

This is from a pro-christian science site.

I especially like the quote in the article near the end from St. Augustine who probably knows his bible just a tad better than a "True Christian®" like you eternal,noted by footnote 37 :

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size ... and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrasing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.... If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven ... ?"37


I'll try to link refutes to all 17 of your beloved site's trumpery, in time.
AA
AccursedAtheist , 30.05.2005, 5:22am link
accursed atheist, i'm so glad your here. go to the new thread and see the love of chrisitanity embodied in eternal damnation. kick him in the balls.

still an atheist, CJ
CJ , 30.05.2005, 6:15am link
eternal_damnation said:

"I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE"

Moving on let's go to claim number 2 from your super incredible all thruthful, all knowing, site the "MAGNETIC FIELD"

Using this link from that devil worshipping organization known as "National Geographic" http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0909_040909_earthmagfield.html lets rip apart claim two.

Your site says"The earth's magnetic field is decaying rapidly, at a constant (if not decreasing) rate.At this rate, 8000 years ago the earth's magnetism would have equaled that of a magnetic star"

First of all your site gives no rate of decay, none, zippo, nawta. Pretty damn good semantics of language there. I guess we can use any rate we like. I think NG's site shows that field does decline and that it even reverses, but there is no evidence to be found that this field ever produced the energy of a magnetic star.

I like this quote from your way cool neato informing site too, "Also, if electric currents in the earth's core are responsible for the earth's magnetism", without saying wtf else creates Earth's measurable magnetic field. Of course electric currents generate magnetic fields, otherwise we wouldn't be viewing text on F#@king computer screens you Luddites. What an incredibly dim-witted claim. Is this the best ID'ers and "True Christian ®" cretinists can postulate? How sad! With logic like that I can't see how we can't let them teach this B#\\sh*t in science class. Good God...not. James Maxwell must be turning in his grave.

I'll try refuting the rest of your super intelligent, all knowing site's claims in time.

Later,
AA
AccursedAtheist , 30.05.2005, 6:34am link
Hi CJ, I'll try to get there, I'm new here, I'm kinda busy the next couple of days, a funeral and a wedding to go to this week, along with work,but I'll be around this site when I can, I think I'll like it here.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 30.05.2005, 6:40am link
Lets see you explain this

EVOLUTION COULD NOT DO THIS

One research scientist, *T.A. McMahon, worked out the formula for the general size and height of trees. The mathematical formula goes something like this: "The diameter of trees will vary with height raised to the 3/2 power; that is the length times the square root of the length." That is surely a lot for a simple-minded tree, without any brains to keep track of. Here is more of the formula: "The mean height trees obtain is only about 25 percent of that which they could obtain and still not buckle. In other words, trees are designed with a safety factor of about four." Someone very intelligent did the designing. We should not expect that the trees figured it out.
eternal_damnation , 01.06.2005, 1:19am link
dude, we're bitching on the new thread. go thump your bible there. it wont help you, but you can still try.

if god told you the only way to get to heaven was to lick his arse clean for a day, would you do it? i wouldn't.
CJ , 01.06.2005, 2:05am link
CJ, why are you so adamant about describing GOD with homosexual acts? Your the only one who does it. You are a faggot, proud and true.
eternal_damnation , 02.06.2005, 1:32am link
And you (eternal_damnation) are a narrow-minded bigot, proud and true.
Just answer this one very simple question 'eternal_damnation': the false god you worship (Jesus Christ) actually said, not once but twice, that he would make his reappearance within the generation that was currently inhabiting the earth. Two thousand, repeat two thousand years later, there is still no sign of him. Why not? Where is he, what is he up to? Could it be that he actually wasn't who he claimed to be?
Other religions, such as Buddhism which you may or may not have heard of before, are actually far superior to the tripe and balderdash that you call christianity. If you really want to 'save souls' then I would suggest you make a start by abandoning your preposterous claim to 'the truth' and actually do something you have probably never done before; ask a few questions about how your cult originated in the first place (ever heard of Mithraism?).
PA , 04.06.2005, 1:29am link
Why are christians (supposedly good people) so full of HATE?!?! Could it be because, deep down, they KNOW that their false beliefs are ultimately worthless, and therefore doomed?
PA , 04.06.2005, 1:32am link
if i am a faggot, then i am proud to be one. are you really determined to waste away your life only to realize seconds before death you've wasted it all? so be it. i know i'll live a happier life than you. and i'm not gay, i just went to the end of the school year dance last night with a really nice girl. we started off the dance in the center of the room with some of my friends from the GSA. so it was me and a gay man and two lesbians,a nd of course my date who broke the ice, and not one person objected. lightning didn't strike us either.

and answer my question i stated above: would you do it to get to heaven? and don't give ema ny shit on why it wouldn't ahppen, just answer the frikkin question.

walk with those who seek truth, run from those who think they've found it.
CJ , 05.06.2005, 1:05am link
why are you E_D so determined to criticize us left and right for who we are? it only makes me prouder, and enforces my beleif i will suceed without ever needing to thump a bible. i just trashed the one i found this morning in my room. been there since sixth grade when an old man was passing them out.

i'm tired of your lies, i'm tired of your hatred, and i'm tired of YOU. i thought you were a loving group. you however, prove otherwise. your out of date book could not even stop the wars that are going on today. in fact, they did a bang up job starting them.

only through god can a man kill another so happily and without a second thought.
CJ , 05.06.2005, 1:13am link
eternal_damnation said:

"I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE"

Since I've already refuted claims #2 and #13 from your wacko cretinism site it's time refute #15,"The spin rate of the earth is slowing .00002 second per year. If the earth were the billions of years old that the evolutionists say it is, the centrifugal force would have notably deformed the earth."

This link sums it up quite nicely.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/rotate.html

The best part is this link blows away the claim of your goofy fundie site by using a rotational loss rate 250 times of the one you claim and using this larger number comes up with 14.7 hr days for a 4.6 billion year old earth.

I like your cool site's neato claim that "the centrifugal force would have notably deformed the earth."

Really? WTF do you "True Christians ®" mean by notably? Oblateness, is WTF I think the term is your site is referring too, presently for the earth is approx. .0034. At the quicker rotation period of 14.7 hours in one day 4.6 billion years ago earth's oblateness factor would be 2.666 times greater than it is now for a value of .0091. Now big (317 times the mass of earth, with a 10 hour day, generating a way bigger angular velocity at it's much larger circumference) old Jupiter's oblateness is presently .0637. Jupiter still isn't falling apart nor deforming all the much, it very much looked round through my telescope the last time I looked. Notably indeed.

Not only is religion b#\\sh*t, but it's supporters are full of it too. Do the math, not the myth to find the truth. It always works.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 12.06.2005, 5:27am link
AA, you refuted nothing.
"If complex organisms ever did evolve from simpler ones, the process took place contrary to the laws of nature, and must have involved what may rightly be termed the miraculous."

"Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."

"Karl Popper warns of a danger: 'A theory, even a scientific theory, may become an intellectual fashion, a substitute for religion, an entrenched dogma.'
This has certainly been true of evolutionary theory."


"Whatever ideas authorities may have on the subject, the lungfishes, like every other major group of fishes that I know, have their origins firmly based in nothing."

AA, evolution is baseless fiction.

GOD is needed. There is no other way.
ETERNAL_DAMNATION , 12.06.2005, 2:02pm link
E_D, actually I have refuted something. You said "I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE".

Not only one claim but three so far. With evidence, not strawman arguments nor by changing the subject. Hell, I've even provided a link to a site with a religious bias that refutes your silly cretinism site and all you can come up with is more ad homeninum arguments with zero evidence. I have no problem using quotes to prove a point, but quotes out of context, or incomplete quotes, or misquotes that you use definitely don't disprove evolution.

Using a quote from Karl Popper,about a criticism of entrenched methodology of the proven predictions of a scientific process doesn't refute the fact that evolution happens regardless of "believing" in anything,how ludicrous. A philosopher complaining about the dogma of evolution. He doesn't deny evolution so why would a "True Christian ®" use this quote to disprove the fact of evolution.

Actually, Popper had no issue with evolution as the following quote in a letter to New Scientist in 1980 says:

"I fully support this purpose, and this letter will be almost exclusively devoted to the defence of the theory of evolution."

Later he says:
"that some people think that I have denied scientific character to the historical sciences, such as palaeontology, or the history of the evolution of life on Earth; or to say, the history of literature, or of technology, or of science. This is a mistake, and I here wish to affirm that these and other historical sciences have in my opinion scientific character: their hypotheses can in many cases be tested. It appears as if some people would think that the historical sciences are untestable because they describe unique events. However, the description of unique events can very often be tested by deriving from them testable predictions or retrodictions."

So to summarize Sir Karl's above quote, evolution happens, can be tested, provides predictions that can be verified (unlike the wholly buybull in which no predictions have ever come true) and cretins have misquoted Popper.

See http://www.geocities.com/lagopaiva/popper80.htm for the full letter.


There is no god in the equation except in the fiction of religion. Like I said do the math not the myth to find the truth.
AccursedAtheist , 12.06.2005, 7:33pm link
Hey E_D,

even the raelians, who believe in ID as you do, say god isn't in the equation.

http://www.rael.org/int/press_site/english/pages/press_releases/200904.html

"The Raelian Movement would like to underscore that The Theory of Intelligent Design does not lead to a supernatural designer but to an extraterrestrial human civilization designer".

A human designer! Would that be the same one that made god. Now I get it, it's like this:<Raelian/IDer mode on> "1:1 In the beginning Man created the heaven and the earth. 1:2 And Man said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 1:3 And Man created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and Man saw that it was good. 1:4 And Man said, Let us make god in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:5 So Man created god in his own image, in the image of Man created he him.":<Raelian/IDer mode off>

Cults, whether alien worshippers or zombie-worshipping Xtians all seem to have one thing in common: B#\\sh*t.

I'll stick with the fact of evolution, not with the myths of cultists.

AA
AccursedAtheist , 12.06.2005, 9:07pm link
THAT'S WHERE YOUR WRONG AA! EVOLUTION IS BASELESS FICTION AND THE BIGGEST JOKE OF THE 20TH CENTURY. YOU'VE REFUTED NOTHING. YOU SOUND LIKE THAT IDIOT BROTHER JEFF ON THE OTHER WEBSITE.
"It is futile to pretend to the public that we understand how an amoeba evolved into a man, when we cannot tell our students how a human egg produces a skin cell or a brain cell!" Dr Jerome J. Lejeune,
Discoverer of the cause of Down's syndrome, Institute de Progenese (Paris), former Professor of Fundamental Cytogenetics.


when you are in the league of this academic, I'll take you seriously chump!

overriding and defining rule.
Rule No. 1: Let us see how far and to what extent we can explain the behaviour of the physical and material universe in terms of purely physical and materical causes, without invoking the supernatural." Richard E. Dickerson,
Authority on chemical evolution. 'The Game of Science, Perspectives on Science and Faith' 44:137, June 1992


"The Institute for Creation Research's followers take science more seriously than most scientists do.

[Their faculty have] absolutely respectable, legitimate doctorates from major American universities." Paul Toumey,
Evolutionist. From his Ph.D. thesis in anthropology.


TAKE THAT ACCURSED MORON (OR YOU JEFF).

CREATIONISM IS THE TRUTH.
ETERNAL_DAMANTION , 13.06.2005, 12:21am link
BROTHER JEFF SHOULD GET A JOB.
ETERNAL_DAMANTION , 13.06.2005, 12:27am link
E_D, your personal attacks against Jeff or myself or whomever does nothing to further whatever agenda you have.

You say "when you are in the league of this academic, I'll take you seriously chump!", well good for you.

That still doesn't disprove the fact that evolution happens, no matter what a bunch of creationists 'believe'. I've refuted your evidence with proof from academics just as prestigious as yours and in some cases the same academics as you, so I'll take them as seriously as you do yours. EVOLUTION=TRUTH, creation science=stupid b#\\sh*t no matter how many misquotes you come up with. That's the way it is, E_D. Raelians, IDer's, cretinists, the evidence they provide has that unique smell of bovine feces.

I love this quote you provided:
"The Institute for Creation Research's followers take science more seriously than most scientists do.
[Their faculty have] absolutely respectable, legitimate doctorates from major American universities." Paul Toumey,
Evolutionist. From his Ph.D. thesis in anthropology.

I can't believe you missed the irony of this source. Anthropology. LOL, the study of ancient cultures and superstitious beliefs. Fucking priceless quote. Too fucking funny. Now E-D, that's the biggest joke of the 21st century. I'm not going to even look at what context this quote was taken in, to me it appears that Paul Toumey is studying the lower life form known as Cretinistus Stupidus, more commonly known as the Christian Fundamentalist as it evolves into the Goddidit Irreduciblus better known as ID'ers.Thanks E_D for again proving evolution is a fact.

Creationism for Dummies here--> http://www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2005/06/creationism_for.php


AA
AccursedAtheist , 13.06.2005, 3:45am link
Excellent description of transitional and intermediate evolution in regards to whale evolution here:

http://www.brentrasmussen.com/

June 12th's entry of Science Sunday entitled : Creationist Lies and Whale's Tales, click on "Read Extended Entry »

It's an excellent article written for the layperson, by a layperson. I know E_d won't acknowdlege anything except if it is written by second-rate, has-been psuedoscientists,or taken out of context by cretinist quote-mining websites, but it's worth a look regardless.

AA
AccursedAtheist , 13.06.2005, 5:04pm link
thx AA, that was a good laugh for me. i can't beleive how many hard-core creationists will try to destroy evidence of things only to prove it by doing so.

e_d is a perfect example of what god has to offer. zip. nada. nothing. gods worth is equivilant to the dead sea lion i found on the beach.

love thy neighbor e_d, love thy neighbor. Oops! too late! so much for the good christian stereotype, out the window!
CJ , 16.06.2005, 9:38pm link
AA,JEFF, CJ YOU STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN ME ONE FACT OF EVOLUTION. WHERE IS THE MISSING LINK?. THERE IS NO COMMON ANCESTOR, NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE. THE FOSSIL DOESN'T SUPPORT IT. QUANTUM EVOLUTION DOESN'T WORK! NICE TRY, BUT THE LACK OF INTERMEDIATE SPECIES IS THE FINAL NAIL IN EVOLUTION'S COFFIN.
IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN FICTION AND FANTASY THEN EVOLUTION IS FOR YOU.
IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH, READ THE BIBLE.

"When the blood of a seal, freshly killed at McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by carbon-14, it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago." W. Dort Jr,
Ph.D. Geology, Professor, University of Kansas, quoted in Antarctic Journal of the United States, 1971

still believe in carbon dating?

"The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.'
My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." Henry "Fritz" Schaefer,
Director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia and Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry. J.L. Sheler and J.M. Schrof, "The Creation", U.S. News & World Report (December 23, 1991):56-64.

CJ, you couldn't even answer my simple physics question and you got an "A" in Physics?

"From my earliest training as a scientist, I was very strongly brainwashed to believe that science cannot be consistent with any kind of deliberate creation.
That notion has had to be painfully shed. At the moment, I can't find any rational argument to knock down the view which argues for conversion to God. We used to have an open mind; now we realize that the only logical answer to life is creation—and not accidental random shuffling." C. Wickramasinghe,
Professor of Applied Math & Astronomy, University College, Cardiff. Interview in London Daily Express (August 14, 1981)

"In the entire realm of science no class of molecule is currently known which can remotely compete with proteins.

It seems increasingly unlikely that the abilities of proteins could be realized to the same degree in any other material form. Proteins are not only unique, but give every impression of being ideally adapted for their role as the universal constructor devices of the cell.

Again, we have an example in which the only feasible candidate for a particular biological role gives every impression of being supremely fit for that role." Denton,
1998, p. 188, emphasis in original

CJ, AA, as atheists, you haven't impressed me a bit. You want people not to believe in GOD? Come up with something more substantianl. I wouldn't want to be anything like you.

CREATION IS THE ONLY LOGICAL EXPLANATION OF LIFE IN THIS WORLD.


STRYPER RULES!!!!

DISTURBED RULES!!
ETERNAL_DAMNATION , 17.06.2005, 12:21am link
uh..you lost me, but then again,. it's late and i'm bored. yeah, i got an A+ in physics.

please list your proof e_d that all humans are made of mud like it says in the bible.

i don't want to make everyone aaround me an atheist, i want them to leave me the hell alone when they try to make me a bible thumper with the threat of hell.

we've been throwing what we know at you, and all you can come up with are cute little quotes from people who are supposedly smart.

so in short, LIST THE FUCKIN' EVIDENCE FOR CREATIONISM, AND PLEASE TELL ME WHY YOU ARE AVOIDING "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR" I KEEP POSTING?

thank you.

if i want the truth, i'll open a biology book, and i'll leave the bible on the shelf. actually i threw mine in the trash can two weeks ago while cleaning my room. though i will admit that carbon 14 dating is prone to being inaccurate, there are many other ways of dating. the radiometric dating of rocks already has been proven to work. and what physics question is it? i must've missed it :|

isn't it a little arrogant to beleive taht your religion is the only true one while there are hundreds more in the world? they all have their own veiws on the start of the world, yet you say it has to be yor own personal veiw? and whent hey don't listen, you pout like your whiney god. sorry to tell you, but witch craft ahs been around far longer then this jesus guy.

and i at least e_d, am not like you (as i have posted several times)i do not worship your hateful whiney god, and i live a very happy life. i have many friends, get great grades, and i'm a rather talented musician, and i didn't need to bend my knee to your god once. you on the other hand, must scream and bitch constantly like an autistic child for anyone to ackowlegde you. and does it do you any good? nope.trust me e_d, you would've been alot more appreciated if your entrance to this website wasn't filled with the hate that christianity can offer.

go beat your children like a good chrisitan. at least i will love mine.

wondering why gods children are a hateful ugly bunch, CJ
CJ , 17.06.2005, 5:42am link
Hey E_D, just for you. Bracketed comments are mine.
Paul Nelson from the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design.

In Touchstone Magazine, July/August 2004):

"Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design."
(No shit. Starting with the bible as their starting point, doesn't allow much room for development)

"We don't have such a theory right now, and that's a problem."
(Again, no shit. Creationists never had a scientific theory, neither will the IDer's. Even a thousand years from now his statement will still be valid.)

"Without a theory, it's very hard to know where to direct your research focus."
(Hmmm? Maybe that's why most of the IDer's camp devotes their efforts into the other parts of their "Wedge" strategy, specifically influencing public and political opinion, using unsuspecting minions like E_D to do their work. How's it feel to be used E_D?)

"Right now, we've got a bag of powerful intuitions,"
(Isn't that what Psychics use? How scientific!)

"and a handful of notions such as 'irreducible complexity' and 'specified complexity'-but, as yet, no general theory of biological design."
(And you never will. The fact of evolution remains, no matter how much it undermines your silly belief system. No creation=no god, no flood=no god, no ark=no god, boo-hoo-hoo)

And again at http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2003022101040

"There is plenty of evidence for intelligent design," Nelson said.
"It isn't a fully-fledged theory -- there isn't yet enough there to actually teach,"
(So Mr. Nelson what is it? Plenty=not enough, wow with scientists like this on your team E_D no wonder you can't do math!)

In response to another question, Nelson emphasized that intelligent design does not necessarily imply the intervention of a divine being.
(In other words like the Raelians say, aliens!. Silly cultists)

AA
AccursedAtheist , 17.06.2005, 6:54pm link
Please CJ, do not compare E_D to an autistic child. I happen to know an autistic person, and to her this is a very unfair comparison.
Latin_lover [Email], 17.06.2005, 7:06pm link
E_D quotes:

"When the blood of a seal, freshly killed at McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by carbon-14, it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago." W. Dort Jr,
Ph.D. Geology, Professor, University of Kansas, quoted in Antarctic Journal of the United States, 1971

and then asks:

"still believe in carbon dating?"

Actually I think that most scientists acknowledge that carbon-14 dating is a relevant and reliable method to date living things or things made from natural materials less than about 40000 years old. But as a method it has been demonstrated to be dependant on where the living things obtain the carbon in their systems. Marine organisms accumulate much of their carbon from a source that is not in balance with the atmosphere, upon which carbon dating is required to be somewhat accurate, unlike terrestrial organisms such as trees and land-dwelling plants. Since this is a now well-known inaccuracy for carbon-dating methods by the scientific community, doing so on marine organisms introduces errors that can be explained.

And even if carbon dating didn't work, it doesn't stop the fact that evolution did, does and will work in the past, present and future.

Then E_D you say: "CJ, AA, as atheists, you haven't impressed me a bit. You want people not to believe in GOD? Come up with something more substantianl."


I'm not here to impress YOU, you egotistical s#*t, I'm here to speak my mind, voice my opinions, discuss issues with other like-minded and non-like-minded people, hell even to refute your silly "Flintstone" science, but don't think it's about you. And yes I do want people to not believe in god, so fucking what? It's their choice to if they want, but what I say or do on this site is hardly likely to change any "True Christian ®"'s diametrically unbalanced mind.

And then you say: "I wouldn't want to be anything like you."

As one notable 'hill-billy heroin'addicted, anti-drug, anti-science, loud-mouthed, hypocritical, god-loving radio personality used to say: DITTO. Right back at ya.



Religion is still bullshit. Ingrained by culture, propaganda and geography mostly. And your brand stinks the most.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 18.06.2005, 7:14am link
yeah L_L, i will agree my comparison to e_d to an autistic child was mean, and i was caught in the moment. come to think of it, e_d reminds me more of a mental asylum patient.
CJ , 19.06.2005, 4:18am link
profanity is a sign of ignorance regardless of your worldlt views. We are not all write and we are not all wrong.Scirnce is a religion were as interpreting the bible can be a science.I am a christion and I fear no other religion, fore religion helps use all find some kind of peace within and should not be the reactant in a combustion reaction.The fire in the different postings is saddeding. Find the middle ground people!
poe , 21.06.2005, 8:40pm link
poe said:
"profanity is a sign of ignorance regardless of your worldlt views."

And sometimes it's the only way to emphasize a point. It doesn't invalidate a point to be made.


"We are not all write and we are not all wrong."

But some things are right ie. evolution and some are wrong ie. 'Intelligent'
design.

Skipping past the warm and fuzzy feeling, new-age, deluded, b#\\sh*t about bible being science and whatever...


"Find the middle ground people! "

No. Not when it comes to the truth on this subject. The ONLY truth in this debate is the result that the scientific method points to concerning the diversity of life on this planet, that the fact of evolution is supported by the overwhelming evidence, and that ID/creationism/"buybull" science isn't. Regardless of what any one 'believes'.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 23.06.2005, 4:24pm link
CJ, you got an A+ in Physics? Bullshit!!

Vf^2- V0^2 = 2as. You couldn't even tell me what this equation represented. Must have been a bird course.

Sorry CJ, I tossed out my books on evolution.
I used to study this stuff, and now realize it's a bunch of garbage. I know your evolution supporting arguments because I used to debate christians with them. The christians are right! They have the truth and I will follow them.

I'm not a mental case. I've almost doubled my lottery winnings playing the stock market. Not bad for " a mental case".
Just for you CJ, I'll find a christian group to donate to.
eternal_damnation , 26.06.2005, 12:18am link
i mean you have the emotional stability of one.

ok, i will admit that equations meaning eludes me. i'll have to look it up at the library (nice fancy new one too! love the place, cafe' and everything!)

and how can you be so sure that christians are the right ones? what about buddists? wiccans? can you be so sure about one group out of a thousand that yours is right because it ahd killed more people then anyone else? or is it because you are afraid of this loving god?

mind you though, near the beginning of the year (i was a goof off. had fun!) i was a ta C average in physics. the pretty much changed after the first quarter, when my grades went sky rocketing. three A's (one of em an A+) on a few hundred point papers may have had something to do with it. my grades were fairly static in physics after that, A after A after A+ and the occasional A-. was a pretty fun class, especially when some kids brought in a video showing the pressure differences of a home-made flour powered bomb. the flour kept putting the candle out so they grabbed a Tiki torch instead :)

i can't help but to notice though that when chrisians need money, they always say: give money to god. 1: god doesn't need money. 2: they give you their phonenumber and adaress. remember that big house and the nice sports car someone mentioned earlier? about amybe half at most is used on the church. in my town, the other half bought losing lottery tickets.
CJ , 27.06.2005, 5:18am link
"I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE ONE CLAIM ON THIS WEBSITE."

Okay. The Law of Thermodynamics. Works fine in a closed system. Doesn't work on our planet because our planet, solar system, nor even our galaxy are closed systems. Besides, if you had actually been paying attention, the creation "scientists" no longer use most of those as evidences against evolution because the real scientists have refuted these claims over a million times, humiliating the creationists in public debates. I suggest, for more recent Creationist apologetics, you look at "NO ANSWERS IN GENESIS". They may have gym teachers disguised as scientists, but at least the admitt half the time when they are wrong.

There. Refuted the claim. Now everyone scream with me....

T R O L L ! ! !

Wish you'de make up your mind which kind of Christian you are pretending to be....or which of you is posting under which name.
Dropinin , 22.07.2005, 9:16pm link
You guys keep going back and forth. Why dont you just set your egos aside and admit that NOONE really knows if there is a god or not. Evel Knievel said it quite well, "we don't know where we came from, we don't know who we are, and we don't know where were going." No matter what philosophy you look at, you will always come up with that as a conclusion. We will find out the truth when we die.
agnostically speaking [Email], 04.08.2005, 7:26pm link
Because that is what he has been fed, and it tastes better than the truth(nothing like a little spice to mask the true taste), it goes down easier. Think about it... all you have to do is ask for forgivness and your reserved a spot at the pimps-r-us table in the city of golden streets. whatever. what did that song say?"Reach out and touch faith"? good luck finding it. must be one of those hidden variables. or one of the million other pieces of the Dogmatic puzzle of religion that are missing. People are conditoned and molded into who they are by what they have thought. thats pretty easy to understand... you keep thinking that your gonna kill someone next time they step on your pretty white shoes, sooner or later your going to. maybe he just didnt/dosent understand the basic principals of Quantum Physics. or maybe hes addicted to feeling like an ass and being belittled or smacked around(ie. turn the other cheek) what happned to eye for an eye? or burning up your best sheep cause it smells good to god? pfft. god created us in his own image? Dont think so. We created god in ours. chew on that princess
FUsaySO [Email], 04.09.2005, 9:44am link

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