Comments on "And God said ..."

Fantastic! A topic the trolls can't derail! lmao.

"All animals are vegetarian ...?"

So what did the mosquitos do? Suck on leaves?

"Firmament? Dividing waters from waters?"

Sure, where did you think all that water from the flood came from? :p
Gilgamesh [Email], 10.07.2005, 1:04am link
DAY ONE

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is the famous “poof”. Damn he was clever.

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

How do you create something that is without form and is void? If there was water there must have been some shape. That is why god got himself a boat. It made it easier to navigate in the dark without getting all wet.

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God did this as an afterthought when he and his boat ran into something in [2]

[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

After sitting in the good light for a while god was getting a sunburn so he created night. Of course, he ran aground again, so he had to set up some kind of cycle.

[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


DAY TWO

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

God was getting tired of sitting in the boat and was very thirsty so he conjured up some land so he could get out and stretch his legs. Plus, that salty water was too much so he divided out a little fresh water so he could have a drink.

[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Being new, there were a lot of leaks in the plumbing. Water was backing up above the firmament at a pretty good clip. It took a good bit of the second day to get all the drains unclogged and get everything dried out. The new light helped a lot.

[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

As an afterthought god gave things names so he could keep them straight in his head.

DAY THREE

[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Up until this point the firmament wasn’t all that firm. At this point god got out his mop and finished the cleaning he started the day before.


[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

More naming. Hmmm….this is earth….thats sea, that’s heaven….ok (god thought to himself) now I think I have it.

[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Now that things were dry, it was time to do some landscaping. The hallmark of any great creator.

[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The important stuff was the grass, bedding plants, roses and the really nice shrubs. With a little stone path this earth is looking pretty good.

[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.


FOURTH DAY

[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

God had to go out in the boat again the night before and ran aground again. Already sunburned he was looking for a flashlight and couldn’t find one. The next best solution was to instantly create an entire galaxy of celestial bodies, including stars whose light would not reach he little project for millions of years after he got the boat unstuck.

[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Now that they were in place he turned them on. Not bad. Of course now his bill for hydrogen was a LOT higher than it was at the beginning of the week.


[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The tiny lights were cute, but it made map reading difficult. As a last resort god made a tiny sun-reflector to help with reading.

[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Of course he made an error in the orbit calculation so its only really shiny about three days a month. But that was ok. God expected to be finished by Sunday and then it would be someone elses problem.

[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

He saw I it was good because he did not double check his math. Hey though, whats a few small math errors when you are doing a lot of landscaping. Its all rough math anyway.


[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

A few quick repairs to the boat and we are ready for tomorrow.


FIFTH DAY

[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

After four days of heavy landscaping and poorly planned celestial lights with nothing but fresh water, it was time to go fishing. Now that god could see where he was going it was time to get dinner.

[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

An avid sportsman, god wanted to try out his new tackle box (brought it with him). He mad little stuff for the small hooks, but some of his gear was really big so a few really large surprise species makes the fishing fun.

[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Of course he also said don’t be a wuss. When you are caught you are caught. Stop all this flipping around. After dinner I am going to make myself a down pillow and take a nap.

[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

There are no reports of big catches so we can assume god struck out. The fish turned out to be smarter than he.



SIXTH DAY

[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

After the embarrassing fishing episode, god decided to try hunting. I guess he figured a big variety of prey would leave at least something he could catch.

[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

It was good alright. God thought he had a really good chance of bagging a sloth or a koala bear for sure. He was really getting hungry.

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Almost as an afterthought god remembered that he had to leave by Sunday. There needed to be someone left to mow and keep up with the landscaping so the man thing seemed like a good idea for a groundskeeper.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Of course he made them a little less inept with respect to fishing and hunting.

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

But he also said “don’t let the leaves build up over there. Keep the place raked up and mow at least once a week. The FIRST ten commandments, now lost, were all landscaping instructions.



[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

…if you can catch it. I haven’t had any luck, but give it a try.

[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

God figured that if hunting and fishing was as hard as it seemed, if the humans did manage to catch anything the last thing they should have to do is share it with some beast. They, he reasoned, can eat salads.

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

It wasn’t anything to brag about, but at least the plumbing was fixed, the lights were on day and night, and he had hired a grounds crew.

As a parting gesture he offered his boat to Adam but Adam declined noting that it was pretty banged up. God was tired and hungry so he headed home to rest.
Sierra [Email], 10.07.2005, 2:09am link
Tim, your probably right. I believe because I want to believe and that I'm weak minded. This whole bombing episode in london has made me rethink what I believe.
I don't what the hell to believe anymore.

The atheists have handed me my "ass" on a platter. I will no longer make a fool out of myself on this web-board.

I'm going for a drive, taking out the vette and blast some metallica.

Thanks for opening my eyes Sierra. You are brilliant-- everything you have said makes sense. I've been reading all of your posts.

Guys please be honest with me. Is there really no God? How do you really feel about this? All I want is some honest answers. Please respond and be nice.
eternal_damnation , 10.07.2005, 2:14am link
Tim, your probably right. I believe because I want to believe and that I'm weak minded. This whole bombing episode in london has made me rethink what I believe.
I don't what the hell to believe anymore.

The atheists have handed me my "ass" on a platter. I will no longer make a fool out of myself on this web-board.

I'm going for a drive, taking out the vette and blast some metallica.

Thanks for opening my eyes Sierra. You are brilliant-- everything you have said makes sense. I've been reading all of your posts.

Guys please be honest with me. Is there really no God? How do you really feel about this? All I want is some honest answers. Please respond and be nice.
eternal_damnation , 10.07.2005, 2:15am link
I will read you reponses tommorw. I will no longer post anymore.
eternal_damnation , 10.07.2005, 2:16am link
"Guys please be honest with me. Is there really no God? How do you really feel about this? All I want is some honest answers. Please respond and be nice."

Well, I'd put it like I have no reason to believe that there is a super being that created the universe.

On the other hand, I believe that the god(s) described in any religion known to man are false, yes. They are stories made to comfort people when faced with death and other unknowns.

Creationists are the most dishonest people I've come across. They will say anything to knock down any view (ie evolution) that disagrees with their beliefs.

E_D if you are sincere (and it sounds like you are) I wish you the best in your search for truth. :)
Gilgamesh [Email], 10.07.2005, 2:27am link
Something I'm a little fuzzy on is if christians really believe in heaven, why isn't someones (a fellow christian) death celebrated? I mean, yea of course they will be missed but geez, aren't they now in the best imaginable place? Isn't it really selfish to think they were taken "too early" or some mess like that. I believe this life is all you got, a "one and done" thing, so I don't believe in that heaven crap. I believe this shows again the hypocrisy of christians.
J [Email], 10.07.2005, 4:07am link
Damn funny post Sierra, excellent!

Gilgamesh, you're absolutely right about the creationists/IDer's being dishonest. The evidence grows every day in favour of evolution, but they outright lie. I think the IDer's just focus almost of their efforts now into the political arena, trying to sway school boards, legislators, etc., just to pervade christianity into schools, all the while denying doing so.

Hi E_D,


"Is there really no God?How do you really feel about this? All I want is some honest answers. Please respond and be nice. "

I have no reason to believe there is a god(s). Don't see the evidence of one, nor the need to worship one. I cannot prove there is no god though. Religions are definetly a man-made device though, used for control, power and gain. Those who run them or use them for power are very good at influenceing their followers. That's the nice part of being an atheist, I follow no one. It's a freedom that every human should enjoy. It's very hard for most to come to grips when shedding a 'god' belief, even frightening for some, change usually is. I suppose that's why most keep believing. Even without a god belief most of us atheists are caring, civil, hard-working, and honest people, just like believers. Even without the threat of hell, we still follow the golden rule "do onto others, as you would like done onto yourself". Morally, it's how I try to live. It's too bad the terrorists and the religious systems that produce them, that caused the deaths and injuries in London in the name of 'god', don't.

"The atheists have handed me my "ass" on a platter. I will no longer make a fool out of myself on this web-board."

That's really a tough thing to say E_D, well done. It's never been my intention E_D to do that to you, but your tenacity is quite admirable. But I still don't like Stryper.

Enjoy the ride. Throw on some old school metal too, Judas Priest "Heading out the Highway" is a good driving tune.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 10.07.2005, 6:19am link
Ha ha ha! That's great, guys. Thanks for the laughs.

Have to second Gil's assesment. The deities described by religion are purely made up in man's mind.

Okay, since we are getting funny again (vegetarian mosquitos....lol), here's a joke to hopefully brighten your days.

A Wiccan dies and finds herself in the middle of a lush, green field. Off in the distance, she can see woods, a river, a lake, and mountains. She wanders around, looking at the beauty around her. "Its true." She says. "I made it to Elysium!"

Suddenly, she comes across a handsome young man dressed all in black. "Who are you?" She asks. "Are you the Goddesses consort?"

He shakes his head. "Afraid not. I'm Satan."

"No!" She exclaims. "It can't be. I'm a Wiccan. I don't believe in you! I'm suppose to go to Elysium!"

"Oh, this is Hell, allright. And I'm Satan. I came to tell you about the events going on tonight, since you are new. Over there at the foot of the mountains, the Vikings are having a feast. In the woods, the Celts are having a bonfire and a hunt tonight. The Hindus are having another festival of lights down by the lake, and the Indians will be having a powwow just down the hill over there. Tommarow morning, the tribal Africans are going to have a dance, and the Chinese parade starts about noon. Whatever makes you happy, we can help you find, or create it for you."

She stood there, bewildered, still not understanding how she could have ended up in a place she didn't believe in. Suddenly, there was a loud crack of thunder. The sky above her opened up. With a shake, the ground next to her opened up, spewing forth fire. Then hundreds of people fell, screaming, through the crack in the sky, and into the firey crack in the earth. Then suddenly, both the sky and ground closed up.

Breathing heavily, eyes wide, she asked, "What was that?"

"Christians and Muslims." Satan mused. "They just weren't happy with anything else."
Dropinin , 10.07.2005, 1:51pm link
Two prawns are best freind and swimming around in the sea.
One is called Justin, the other Christian.
It's pretty boring being a prawn, so they were swimming around, disscussing what it would be like to be a shark.
"I'd love to be a shark." said Christian.
"Yeah, me to." said Justin. "It'd be a lot of fun."
"Anyway, I've got to go " said Christian. "See you".

So Justin is swimming home, still wondering what it would be like to be a shark, when he comes across a cod.
"So you want to be a shark?" Said the cod.
"Yeah" said Justin "How d'you know that?"
"I am a magic cod and if you wish it, I can make you a shark."
Justin though about it, and decided to go ahead with it.

The next day Justin wakes up and discovers he is a shark.
He decides to go tell all of his friends but when he gets to all of them, they run away. "No No!! Go away!!!" The they all said, even Christian.

So Justin is now swimming around, depressed that he hasn't got any friends when he comes across cod again. "Change me back" he said in desperation. "Alright" says the cod.

So the next day Justin wakes up and finds he is a prawn again.
He is so exited he goes to tell his friends.

"No! Go away Justin, you'll eat me!" says Christian

"No, you don't understand!" says Justin

"I've changed, I found cod, I'm a prawn again Christian!"
Tim [Home], 10.07.2005, 2:14pm link
Okay, so long as we're making an assessment of the Bible, lets go over a recent United States Supreme Court case...the Ten Commandments...and its relevence to today and to today's law. Now, I'll have to do this backwards, because the first is actually the best.

10. "Thou shalt not covet...."

Hey, that's great. Don't be greedy. However, this would destroy the economies of the industrialized world. Everything we buy is because our neighbors, our family, or our friends have it, or think its cool.

9). "Thou shalt not bear false witness"

Another good peice of advice. Don't lie in court. In fact, don't lie at all. However, this would cause a collapse in the judicial system. Every judge would be out of work, for in every court case, someone is lying. Not to mention that this would create a hostile working environment for lawyers, and what would the rag-mags publish?

8). "Thou shalt not steal."

Another great one! In fact, we have some very valid laws surrounding this...uh oh, I just thought of something. This would mean a disolvement of both the IRS and emminant domain laws! Arrggg! I guess that can't work either.

7). "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Once again, another good peice of advice. Don't piss off your spouse. Don't spread diseases. Adultery use to be against the law. However, politicians and religious leaders did away with these laws for one simple reason...they were the ones doing most of it!

6). "Thou shalt not kill"

Okay, this one seems a bit broad. Liberals actually translate this as murder, but the King James version says Kill. Not murdering people is a good idea. However, the broad term of "kill" would destroy so many things. The death penalty. War. Slaughtering animals for food. Heck, when you pull a carot out of the ground, you kill it!

But on a slightly looser note, I may not be quick to go to war (I've punched two people my entire life, other than sparring), but I sure as heck believe in self defense.

5). "Honour thy mother and father".

Another great idea. That's what we have social security for, to ensure that our elderly are taken care of. However...what if your parents had been abusive pricks? Should you honour them? What if your dad was a molestor? Sorry, but just like some of the others, its a good peice of advice that, sadly, just doesn't apply in all situations.

4). "Thou shalt keep the sabbath holy"

Silly me, I heard the Sabbath was Saturday. Oh well.

This commandment would also cause complete chaos in today's world. Police, fire fighters, and medical personell HAVE to work on this day, along with many others. I mean, we can't make a law that fires don't happen on Sunday, or that people don't have heart attacks. Besides, where would people go to eat after church? Did they ever stop and think that the waitress might want to keep the sabbath holy? Or the people in the grocery store? Or the gas station? And what about those people who mow their lawns? Or Superbowl Sunday? Isn't that working?

3). "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain..."

What....the....hell....does....this....mean?

Okay, it means swearing in a contract. It does not mean a prohibition against cursing. However, today we have written contracts, and when there is a dispute, the courts get involved, not God. Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone who just says, "I'll swear by God, and that will be the end of it."

2). "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, in the earth beneath, or that is in water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them..."

Okay, two prong on this one. First, people have made images of Jesus (or even just the cross) and bow down to it, and serve it. How many times have we heard, "I serve the cross."? Didn't we also have something earlier about people stopping traffic to worship a water stain? Yikes.

Now, the graven image thing, broadly, means no statues, no photographs, no nothing. Pictures of your kids from school? Gone. That painting up in your living room? Gone. Your little gnome out in your garden? Gone. And worse yet, 90% of the motion picture industry would be out of work. Oh, sure, some could get jobs in plays, but what of the stunt men? The visual effects artists? The computer generated graphics artists? (Shakes head.) Movies and television generate trillions of dollars in revenue world wide. There would be another economic upset.

and Finally:

1). "Thou shalt have no Gods before me"

Yes, that's what Christians WANT you to think the first commandment is. But if you look at Exodus 20, its not the first thing that God says. The first thing that God says unto the people is, "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have other gods before me." Of course, when you point this out, they (Christians) say, "Its only a statement! Its not a commandment!"

Not according to those who wrote it, its not. And its an integral part of the situation. The Hebrews worship no other deity because YHVH brought them out of bondage (never mind that the slavery thing was made up in the first place). I don't know about you, but my ancestors never were slaves in Egypt. My ancestors are Germans, Celts, and native Americans (Canadian, that is). Therefore, I am under no obligation whatsoever to worship this God.

But, since Atheists don't worship ANY God, I guess its a bit of moot point. Atheists are following this law in that reguard. ROFLMAO.

But as a final part to this, this kinda destroys the unwritten myth that there is only one God. YHVH doesn't say there aren't other Gods. In fact, right there he is acknowledging that other deities exist. He says that the Hebrews are only suppose to worship HIM! (Because he's a jealous God, Exodus 20:5).


And there you have it. The Ten Commandments and their relevence to today.

However, the next time you come up against a staunch supporter of the display of the Ten Commandments in public places, ask them a simple question. "Can you name all ten?" 9 out of 10 supporters won't get past three laws, and certainly not in order. A local radio talk show host did this once, and only one person could name all ten...of course, that was an hour AFTER he started challenging people. The guy had time to look them up.

Then you can just say to them, "I think you better post them in your own home first, because you obviously need to learn them." Its almost frighteningly sad that a majority of atheists know the Bible better than the majority of true believers.

The ten commandments worshippers in the 21st century are certainly a lesson in hypocrissy. They expect to thrust upon us that which they don't even know (and probably don't follow) themselves.
Dropinin , 10.07.2005, 3:14pm link
I often wonder why the commandments stop at 10. Exodus certainly doesn't. The book goes on to explain rules for how to treat your slaves and rules for selling your daughter into slavery. Maybe those should be on the courthouse steps too?
Gilgamesh [Email], 10.07.2005, 9:03pm link
Before the Beginning, an All-Powerful Magical Being was sitting on his ass in a Land called Nowhere for a very, very long time, although there was no time yet, and time cannot exist in Nowhere. This Magical Being, being magical in nature and bored stiff from doing nothing in Nowhere for a hell of a long time although there was no time to enable him to do anything or to even notice that he was bored doing nothing in Nowhere, decided to be true to his magical nature, and work some magic. As the Magical Being opened his mouth to talk to himself and think out loud while wondering what he should do, the beans that he ate for dinner worked their own special magic, and he spontaneously and unexpectedly emitted a Great Juicy Magic Fart. This Great Juicy Magic Fart, the explosion that we euphemistically call the Big Bang, expanded into the Universe that we live in. This Great Juicy Magic Fart, totally unplanned as it was, caught the Magical Being quite by surprise. He looked at the expanding emission from his ass and said, "Holy Shit! I created the Universe! Glory!"

As the Great Juicy Magic Fart Universe expanded, some of the shit solidified and became galaxies. Some of the smaller shit solidified and became suns and some of the even smaller shit became planets. The shit that was even smaller than the other previously mentioned shit became asteroids, comets, and other assorted space shit. Of course, other shit happened too, but that covers the most important shit in this simplistic shitty creation myth that perhaps someday some Shit-filled Fundies will ludicrously take very seriously as Divine Truth. There was enough shit in the Great Juicy Magical Fart to form an enormous universe composed of approximately 125 billion galaxies. Our galaxy is the only one of any importance to the Magical Being, and then only one planet in one solar system in that one galaxy euphemistically called the "Milky Way" after the Magical Being had a bout of diarrhea while in the vicinity is actually of any great importance. Those other 124,999,999,999 galaxies are simply a bunch of basically useless space shit that is good for glorious window dressing to be observed from our vantage point on this one relatively very small piece of solidified magical shit called Earth, but not much else. Anyway, as the Earth cooled from the heat generated by the Great Juicy Magical Fart, it just happened to be at the right distance from the larger and hotter piece of shit called the Sun for something truly magical to happen upon its cooling surface. The Magical Being, being quite pleased with the outcome of his accidental but truly Magical Fart, reached down into a pool of shit and caused some molecules of shit to come together to form this totally new shit called LIFE.

This new shit called life turned out to be Magically Tenacious. Against all odds, it survived the hostile environment that the Magical Being had created it in, and it got better and better over time. Before too long, at least on the Magical Being's time scale, single-celled life forms emerged that were able to swim and survive in this shit called water. Another form of life called plants also formed and survived by soaking up invisible shit from the really hot piece of shit called the Sun with shit projections called leaves. This Magically Tenacious LIFE progressed into better and better forms of shit. Some really enormous pieces of shit called dinosaurs ruled the planet for millions of years until the Magical Being said, "Fuck this shit! It's no good!" The Magical Being lassoed one of those pieces of shit that we call asteroids and hurled it at the piece of shit called Earth. The smaller piece of shit struck the much larger piece of shit called Earth with tremendous force, and spewed all kinds of shit into the Earth's atmosphere. The dinosaurs looked up as the smaller shit streaked through the sky headed for impact in the Yucatan Peninsula. They collectively sighed with resignation at their unavoidable fate but cried out to the Magical Being in terror and anger saying, "FUCK YOU, MAGICAL BEING!!" The Magical Being, being heinously evil, didn't really give a shit and shouted back down and sayeth unto them, "EAT SHIT AND DIE, DINOSAURS!!" After this shit happened, the Earth gradually recovered and shit. Now that the enormous pieces of shit called dinosaurs were no more, there was room and opportunity for smaller pieces of shit called mammals to form and eventually rule the planet and shit. Most of these life forms were just dumb shit. But, several million years ago, some of this dumb shit started getting smarter and shit and became primates. These primate shit things got bigger and smarter and the Magical Being just sat back and really didn't do much until 6000 years ago. It was at that time that He said, "Shit! I had better interject myself and do something with this shit and give it some Magically Divine direction and shit."

The Magical Being looked at the primate shit things and decided arbitrarily to use them for a model for this new idea that he had dreamed up recently while taking a shit. He reached down into the Earth and scooped up some shit. The Magical Being formed something that looked very much like the other primate shit things, but this shit was the best yet! The Magical Being endowed this superior primate shit life with an intelligence sort of like his own in a distant and mystical sort of way, but with no magical powers. But, he made sure that this better primate shit life would survive by giving it compatible tools that made them feel REALLY GOOD when they came together periodically to make some more superior primate shit things just like themselves. The Magical Being was thrilled! He looked around at the shit that he had created and said, "This shit is fucking awesome!" The Magical Being and the shit that he had created on the Earth lived together for a while in perfect harmony, but as it always does, shit happened! The Talking Snake, a previously unknown piece of shit, meandered into the Realm of the Magical Being on Earth and spoke with the shit things called Adam and Eve. Now Eve was a particularly dumb blond piece of shit who didn't know better than to listen to the Talking Snake, who always lies. The Talking Snake informed Eve that the Magical Being was holding out on her and Adam and that they should eat of the shit from the tree that the Magical Being had forbidden them to fuck with. Eve replied and said, "The Magical Being said not to fuck with that shit or we would surely die!"

The Talking Snake informed Eve that the Magical Being did not have their best interests in mind, and that he wanted to keep them from experiencing their full potential and shit. Eve decided, "What the fuck? It looks good and shit." So, Eve ate some of the shit from the tree that she had been warned not to fuck with. Adam came back from doing some other shit somewhere else and found Eve eating the shit from the tree that she wasn't supposed to fuck with. Adam was like, "What the fuck is this shit?" Eve explained the situation to Adam, and since Adam could readily observe that Eve had not died and shit, he was like, "Shit! Let me have some of that forbidden shit from the tree that we are not supposed to fuck with!" Adam chomped down on the forbidden shit, and about this time the all-knowing Magical Being boomed out, "Adam, where the fuck are you?" Adam was mometarily taken aback at seeing the all-knowing Magical Being mystified and shit, but he collected himself and said, "Here I am over here, Magical Being, with Eve and this Talking Snake!" Well, the Magical Being was FUCKING PISSED OFF. The Magical Being turned to the Talking Snake and said, "Cursed art thou for doing this evil shit! You shall crawl on your belly and eat pulverized dried shit for all of your days and shit!" The Magical Being turned to Adam and roared, "Why did you eat the shit from the tree that I told you not to fuck with?" Adam thought to himself, "I'm not taking the rap for this shit alone". He turned to the Magical Being and said, "Eve made me do this shit! The Talking Snake lied to her and she, being the dumber than shit blond that she is, lied to me and I believed her and shit since she has never lied to me before." The Magical Being, being totally unreasonable and shit, turned to Eve and said, "Because you have done this shit, you shall experience tremendous pain while giving birth to little shit beings like yourselves." But, even though I am inflicting this horrendous punishment upon you, please never doubt that I love you!" The Magical Being turned to Adam and said, "Because you have also done this shit and ate the shit from the tree that I told you not to fuck with, I am banishing you from my Magical Realm on Earth. You will sweat and work torturously hard and shit to scrape out an existence and survive. But, please believe that I love you!" The Magical Being also informed them that they had lost eternal life and shit and that they were fucked for about 4000 years until he could fuck Mary with His Holy Spook and produce a primate shit thing who is also the Magical Being embodied. But, right there the Magical Being prophesied about the embodied Magical Being baby primate shit thing that was to come in about 4000 years, or in about four days as the Magical Being interprets the time, and what the Magical Being baby shit thing was going to do to the Talking Snake and for the disgraced primate shit life things. The Magical Being clothed Adam and Eve since they were naked and shit. The Magical Being said, "Holy Shit! They have become like one of us, even though there is only one of Me." Because they can think for themselves now, I must banish them forever from my Magical Realm on Earth. If only they hadn't eaten the shit from the tree that I told them not to fuck with! DAMN that Talking Snake!" So, the Magical Being banished Adam and Eve from his Magical Realm on Earth and placed a really special Magical Talking, Flying, and Flaming Sword in front of the entrance to the Magical Realm to keep them out and shit.
Brother Jeff [Home], 11.07.2005, 8:05am link
I hope you keep posting E_D. You shouldn't go silent.

My atheism came from reading the bible, and coming to the understanding that it as a way to control people (through the promise of a future utopia).

I was shocked to read in Deuteronomy, Chapter 25, Verses 11 & 12:

(11) "When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, (12) then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity."

God's law? Sounds like Man's law to tell women "stay off my nuts!" So according to God, if a woman's husband is getting his ass kicked and she defends him by punching the aggressor in the nuts, HER hand is to be cut off. AND God says... "your eye shall have no pity." The bible's treatment of women is UnDefendable.

It is for this identical reason I've concerned about Islam. On Tim's last post there where some Islamic defenders after the negative posts against them. I want to ask them to reply...

How the hell does Islam get away treating women the way they do. Allah is great or Allah is a sexist? Please explain to me how "good" muslims can treat 50% of their faith like crap. It makes me frickin' sick. There is no God. Just people trying to control other people.
anywherebutneverland [Email], 11.07.2005, 8:13am link
"How the hell does Islam get away treating women the way they do. "

Actually, the way Muslim women are being treated is UNKoranic. Its got nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with medieval minded bastards (as my Indian Muslim friend would say). In other words, they've taken a couple of laws designed to be chivelrous, and turn it around to oppress women. And its not everywhere, either. Very few Indian Muslims wear a veil (I think out of the 500 or more at John and Alfea's wedding, there was one woman wearing a veil.)

Oppression of women isn't just a Muslim phenominon. It happens world wide, and even continues to happen in the Industrialized world. The Northern European bloodline was the first to throw it away because we were last to be oppressed (Romans and Christianity did that.)

E_D is going silent because he's a troll and we're too smart to not figure it out. However, he'll come back as another persona, or even just under another name. I'd be highly surprised if he hasn't already posted as a different person, and we just didn't pick up on it yet. I'm even more surprised that he hasn't stolen someone elses user name and post as them just to start crap. He's done that for years.
Dropinin , 11.07.2005, 6:28pm link
I dunno....

THis topic isn't very much fun. To be a smartass and in any way answer the question requires a LOT of writing.

Tim, can we have a new topic that makes it easier to insult towelheads and religion in general and waive the US, UK and Canadian flag at the same time?

Ooohhh Rah!!!

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 12.07.2005, 2:12am link
2nd the motion by the gentleman Sierra.

The three wise men arrived to visit the child lying in the manger. One of the wise men was exceptionally tall and bumped his head on the low doorway as he entered the stable. "Jesus Christ!" he exclaimed. Joseph said, "Write that down, Mary; it's better than Clyde!"
anywherebutneverland [Email], 12.07.2005, 3:04am link
Sierra, I'm just not the flag waving type ...
Tim [Home], 12.07.2005, 12:14pm link
Don't get me wrong, I'm a complete Atheist, but it seems that a lot of your arguments are against narrow-minded followers and not the actual religion itself. Shouldn't you focus more on fighting the corrupt rather than the beliefs they follow? If you think about it, religion does support a rather valid system of morals (ex. the Golden Rule). Sure, there are flaws, but it's got a pretty good skeletal structure.

I don't support religion, I just happen to be able to see both sides at the same time.
C.T.G. [Email], 12.07.2005, 5:21pm link
Religion supports a valid system of morals? Here's the breakdown of the bible as I see it: 0.1% feel-good nuggets of knowledge and/or wisdom, and 99.9%barbaric, disgusting conduct set into writing by the savages that populated the earth when its respective books were written. And the feel-good parts? (23rd Psalm, etc.) I can't think of one that isn't either ripped off from earlier philosophies(Confuscious beat Jesus to The Golden Rule by about 600 years), or is just so duuuhh obvious that any sane, moral person would have been practicing them his or her whole life anyway! Why slog through all the other bullshit?

This is my first posting, by the way. I love what I've read so far, and I hope I can add to the discussion every now and then.
Digitalchainsaw [Email], 13.07.2005, 6:31am link
If everything the bible said was true, especially the genesis stuff you have to ask one BIG question.

Why. Why????


Why go to all that trouble?

Out of nothingness this previously existing omnipotent being creates everything we know....and then opressively rules this creation creating incalcuable suffering and pain through demands of belief, pennance and worship.

If a person today demanded the same from a child they would be arrested.

What silly bullshit.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 13.07.2005, 7:58am link
"If you think about it, religion does support a rather valid system of morals (ex. the Golden Rule). "

Unfortunately, when church members break this system of morals, the church does nothing to stop it. Some cover it up, others "pray" for the law-breaker. They stand behind child molestors, rapists, and serial killers, and throw accusations at the victims. The BTK serial killer in Witchita, Kansas can kill that many people, including a 14 year old girl and her little brother, stand over their dead bodies and jack off, and he is in "good standing with the church".

Sorry, but while their might be a few good ideas in these books, those that espouse these books are hardly the pillars of society. And there are just far to many examples of these "pillars of society" to mention all in one place. Even websites that tried to do that eventually stopped because its too difficult a job.

"Why go to all that trouble?"

Because "God" was bored. Then years later he got horney. But see, it wasn't truly his son, it was himself who was born. And he had to sacrifice himself to himself so that he could forgive mankind because he screwed up and gave us free will.

Hmmm...still doesn't make sense to me either.
Dropinin , 13.07.2005, 8:11pm link
If 95% of the worlds population ARE religous believers/followers then that leaves only 5% (guess) of "NORMAL" people with non bias views - How can we possibly ever have a fair world? Education is the only way to remedy this problem!
Pabzilla [Email], 14.07.2005, 1:21pm link
back from camp.

e_d, i don't beleive in any god whatsoever, but i say if you choose not to follow a god, your next step has changed from 'kissing the preists ass" to improving yourself and others too.

i just don't find the christian (or jewish or islamic god, i beleive they are all the same) really worthy of worship as by what went on and goes on in the world. quite frankly if his followers like Hitler did what they did in the name of god, well, enuff said.

i don't need a god to follow or to live my life. i've been living well for about 5 years or so without one, but when i think about it, i never really did care about going to heaven or hell, knowing that some of my best friends wouldn't be there.

my basic goal in life along with several of my atheist friends (i basically know their opinions, but i figure most my friends have the same one) if to help humanity over come problems and improve where we need to. kinda sounds like Captian Picard from star trek TNG, but it's the basics.

that was kinda sudden though :|

to e_d: live long and prosper, walk with those seeking truth, run from those who think they've found it.

please to continue to post, you're a very interesting person, and you have made me think and stretch my mind to find answers for your questions.

PS: i prefer Bouevard of Broken Dreams by Green Day for road trips. i'm not old enough to drive yet (odd law in CA about when you're born determines when you drive) but my birthday is August 8th. till then, i basically walk around town. i find it much more peaceful then having to stop for gas halfway through my thinking, as i think best on my feet.

later days yo!
CJ , 17.07.2005, 3:32am link
to the confused out there: just ask yourself, do you really want to associate with people who've done these attrocites and are capable of doing it again? capable of doing these attrocities against what they were taught so they get a foot hold with their god? knowing they can do these attorcites with their leaders turning a blind eye to the horrors while glorifying them?

i say this for every religion, christian, muslim, even atheism. yes, there are quite a share of atheist ass holes out there as well i'm sorry to say.

just ask why.

hoping to hear from e_d again someday
CJ , 17.07.2005, 3:45am link
Wow...it got really quiet over the weekend. Everyone else reading the new Harry Potter book? I just finished last night. Cried through the whole last two chapters.

(Starts laughing.) Sorry, we've got this local idiot preacher, Reverend Johnson, who was on the radio Thursday, and television Friday, saying how the Harry Potter books will turn your kids into the BTK killer. Our local radio talk show was all a buzz over that. Here were some of the comments (a few made me laugh.)

caller 1: "Reverend Johnson is right. I'm a perfect example of this. I use to watch cartoons as a kid, and now all I do is chase road runners around. I drop anvils on peoples heads, and I've bankrupted my family by ordering from the ACME catalogue."

caller #2: (Obvious Atheist). "I've read both the Harry Potter series and the Bible, and frankly...with all the rape, murder, and incest, I think the Old Testament is far more damaging to kids."

Christian caller: (One of two the entire show) "The Harry Potter books are like a Ouija board. The moment its opened up, it allows Satan to come in."

Smartest caller of all: "Does anyone realize that the BTK killer read nothing but his Bible from before the time that he started killing?"



On an even happier note, Pabzilla, non-belief is growing by leaps and bounds. The last I heard, those claiming no religion at all was up past 20% in the Industrialized world. And if you talk to a lot of people, here's the conversation you'll get.

"Whats your religion?"

"Christian."

"But what do you really believe?"

"Ummm....I don't really know."

A conversation, word for word, between my spouse and one of our friends. But judging by the number of unchurched people in the U.S., Canada, and Britain, the number of people who simply call themselves Christan because thats how they were brought up, but they never thought about it, could bring the role call as high as 55%.
Dropinin , 18.07.2005, 11:19am link
Great comments Dropinin, the Harry Potter vs. Christianity crap has made be laugh hard. And an excellent point on BTK's reading influences. The Bible & the Quran have influenced more violence than any other fiction book printed.
anywherebutneverland [Email], 18.07.2005, 8:00pm link
yeah, i found a paper in my community titled "harry potter, good for your children?" it leaded into crap and bullshit about how harry potter is responsible for the growing number of pagan in the world. i got a sinister idea, and i posted a paper right next to where i found it saying stuff like "harry potter, satanic as my shoes." and "harry potter inspires imagination, which leads to youthful thinking as well as new ideas, not all of which are appreciated by parents who considder such things sinful" and my friend put a big set of letters at the bottom "it is time for the world to realize that jesus is going to have to make room."

i came back two days later to find it still up in the shopping center, and another paper beneath it saying "harry potter creates thoughts unclean to gods children." i borrowed a red amrker from a clerk and wrote on it "fear my imagination, for with it i will outgrow your superstition." after that, it got really quiet. I still have the paper the original thumper posted.
CJ , 18.07.2005, 9:10pm link
wow, thats a pretty big total for atheists. i remember that canada was gaining more atheist, and soon it will be a lovely peacful place to live without people ringing my door bell, smakcing me in the face with a bible, and then saying "god can help you!"

PS, i'm CJ, but i just chose this new name for one thing, it's my nick name, second of all, CJ just sounds lousy now ever since i got the nickname.

later days!
Shaggy , 18.07.2005, 9:13pm link
Thank you CJ , AA, anywherebutneverland for your kind thoughts.
I'll just call myself E_D for now on.
I don't have any problem with Harry Potter books. Some of these Fundies go way overboard.
Where do you guys get your mental strength from? I believe because I'm scared of going to hell for eternity.
I truly admire your strength, wish I had 10% of it.
Tim, I promise no more nonsense being posted. I'll do my homework and defend my position before posting.
Any thoughts on Pascal's wager. Doesn't it make sense to believe in God? The pay off is so much better than not believing.
eternal_damnation , 19.07.2005, 12:43am link
hullo tim. bet you missed me like an STD!

you ARE being pedantic here, ridiculously so.

"The writers of the creation myths had no understanding of the universe as we know it."

yup. so you citing verses from genesis that contradict our current, scientific view of the world as being proof of the author's "lack of understanding of the universe" is kind of irrelevant.

we KNOW that whoever wrote genesis had no scientific knowledge of the world. it's not a scientific text.

i don't know anything at all about the scientific argument between evolution and creation theory. but i do know a lot about people who wilfully misinterpret the bible to make a point.

(that goes for rampant atheists and fundy christians alike, by the way)
ffyona [Email][Home], 19.07.2005, 1:54am link
well e_d, i beleive hell is actually a place (the original hell that jesus went to, not the scare tactic hell) where when you die, you go there, wait in line for a few days to get your soul purified (if needed), then you're shot up to heaven to go hang with your buddies.

despite some of the mean things we've all said, i doubt any of us is truly deserving of going to the scare tactic version of hell where you get whipped for eternity.

oh, for one thing, i'm to lazy to really worship a god, and i don't need to. not required of me, and the cruel religous people remind me of people being like mosquitos, where when they find food (religion) they are half way there when they get a huge blast of OFF spray.

oh and mental strength for me is not a way to sheild me from the thoughts of hell. 1, i don't beleive in hell (i don't really care if anyone else does i guess) and 2, earth is heaven and hell rolled into one. i just say try to shape the day into a heaven for you :)

PS in case you missed it, i'm CJ, i decided to use the nick name i got up at camp from now on.

oh, and how was the ride e_d?
Shaggy , 19.07.2005, 4:14am link
and another PS, you do have mental strength e_d. i've seen more people crack under pressure when their beleifs are challenged then ones who hold firm.
Shaggy , 19.07.2005, 4:16am link
Hey Shaggy (CJ), I enjoy a long drive even when gas is a buck a litre. Do you know of a good Judas Priest CD? Never listened to them that much, but heard they are a great band.
Strong minded? Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not as strong minded as you, AA, Tim, Sierra and others. I need to work on that. Need to develop my own thoughts instead of always appealing to authority. Those PhD's are smart, and spend lots of time researching their fields, so they know what they are talking about. How can I doubt them?
E_D , 19.07.2005, 4:28am link
"we KNOW that whoever wrote genesis had no scientific knowledge of the world." - well, anyone with a degree of intelligence knows that. Unfortunately a worryingly large number of Christians take the bible completely literally. My hope (probably in vain) is that such people will begin to question their beliefs if I continue to point out the obvious.

People - don't take too much notice of E_D's admissions of weak mindedness and stuff. His "beliefs" haven't changed, he's just changed tact in his quest to piss people off. He recently wrote to Brother Jeff spouting in his previous style of complete bullshit (http://religionisbullshit.org/2005/07/13/brother-e-d-posts/).
Tim [Home], 19.07.2005, 5:39pm link
good judas priest cd - painkiller, or you could get metal works which is a greatest hits between 73-93
Dodge , 19.07.2005, 6:02pm link
Okay, E_D...despite the fact that I think you are a troll, you are being polite, so I will be polite back.

Theologically speaking, CJ/Shaggy's interpretation of Hell is the correct one. It is the one Jesus was taught.

Even greater, you will find, within the words of Jesus himself, where he says, "God handed the Judgement to me, and I refuse to judge any man."

The current religion we call Christianity should truthfully be called "Paulism".

If you are truly THAT afraid of walking away from your faith, I suggest a particular faith called "Deism". In fact, you can even look up "Christian Deism" with your web browser. "The Human Jesus and Christian Deism" is one of the better websites...all articles are written by a man who was a Baptist minister who left it for Deism. Deists make many of the same anti-Clerical and anti-Biblical arguements that atheists do.

As for Pascals wager...sure, it doesn't hurt to believe in the tooth fairy either...but year after year of sticking money under my kid's pillows, and that money not multiplying the next day, shows me that the tooth fairy is something made up to keep kids from getting upset about their teeth falling out. I'm not saying that NO DEITY exists...our puny human brains couldn't possibly know that one way or the other. But belief or worship in a deity shouldn't mean suspending ones "God given" common sense and jumping through hoops for the pleasure and power of the clerics.



You know what? We actually stumbled across Reverend Johnson's church by accident when we went to the movies over the weekend. I wanted SOOOOO much to go home, get a spray can, and write "HARRY POTTER LIVES" all over the parking lot. But...(looks to the ground sheepishly) I have far too much self control for that. Oh, to be young, obnoxious, and not responsible for producing good citizens upon the world. One of these days, I'll be old enough to do stupid stuff again, and they can blame it on sinility.
Dropinin , 19.07.2005, 10:31pm link
I prefer "Sad Wings of Destiny"...that was back when Rob Halford had a tremendous vocal range. Its a bit different than JP's more recent stuff, so its a bit of an acquired taste.
Dropinin , 19.07.2005, 10:34pm link
Tim,
I'm not defending brother E_D, but if you go to the link you posted, brother E_D admitted defeat, and that he is weak minded.
What's wrong with that?
I don't believe in hell, hell is already here on earth. We need to preach the spirit of christ, not the religion of the church.
I believe in love and forgiveness. It is the only way.
Timnot4me , 20.07.2005, 12:15am link
can someone define to me deism? i have no clue what that is, i've heard it before, but i am clueless as to what it is. as far as i know, it may be a odd sandwich made of grilled cat meat (ick!)

and i have never heard judas preists before. my B-day is coming, and i already asked for Nightwish, but i bet i can ask a friend :)

and stop degrading yourself, i used to do that when i had one of those teenager troubles that i'm not really worth it (thankfully not suicidal) trust me the feeling sucks. i say go for the positives in yourself. i myself still suck at the guitar (acoustic, having tot each myself) but i recently found some easy to paly music, rage agaisnt the machine's, time bomb or something like that. eventually I hope to be able to mimik Emppo Vuorien chords. never seen fingers fly that fast before :)

erm, i guess thats it for now.

ps, i got the name shaggy due to the hair on my face. save for the top of my head, i'm about to go way past shaggy. my aunts already hate my hair, but i don't care :)
Shaggy , 20.07.2005, 6:15am link
E_D:"Do you know of a good Judas Priest CD?"

Hi E_D, JP's best overall album is "British Steel" by far, for guitar work and just kicking tunes. Tunes that really rock on it are "Metal Gods" it's got a really cool rhythm, "Grinder", "You Don't Have to be Old to be Wise", which was one of my favourites when I was about 20 and pissed at the world, and the best on the album is "The Rage".

Like Dropinin said, the album "Sad Wings of Destiny" really shows off Halford's vocals, especially "Victim of Changes", where he goes about 5 octaves! Amazing. The live versions of the song don't compare to the studio one.(I also like this song because I just learned it last week on guitar). "The Ripper" on this album is pretty cool too, if you get a chance listen to Iron Maiden's cover of it as well.

Dodge's recommendation of "Metal Works" will pretty much give you a sampler of their stuff, although I think there are better JP tunes out there.
Most albums pre "Turbo" really are better than their later stuff in my opinion. The guitars are way tighter and the sound is cleaner on these albums. Lots of good tunes to listen to when driving. Enjoy!

AA
AccursedAtheist , 20.07.2005, 6:45am link
Shaggy said: "can someone define to me deism?"

As far as I know, in a nutshell deism is the belief in a deity (god or gods) creating the universe, including the self-regulating laws that govern it, ie physics, biology, chemistry, and then letting it do its own thing. The deity(s) doesn't (don't) interfere with it after that, nor probably care(s) what individuals do in it. To me, deism isn't much of problem as a god belief. I imagine there are other views contained in deistic beliefs, but generally most deists I've talked with are much like atheists. Hope this helps.

AA
AccursedAtheist , 20.07.2005, 6:57am link
Have to agree with AA's assessment of Deism. However, you will find a lot of variety among Deists, just like you find a lot of variety among atheists. The most important is that there is little to no dogma, a harsh criticism of mythology and superstition, a harsh criticism of the clergy, and a good dose of common sense and scientific reasoning. I believe that if any God exists, they probably have the closest assessment of him/her.

In the United States, its very much like the beliefs espoused by Thomas Jefferson (who called himself a sect all unto his own) and John Adams (who was a Unitarian). Ben Franklin was a slightly more theistic Deist, and Thomas Paine was a fundamentalist Deist. Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" was the first American Deistic writing. Some believe that George Washington was a Deist or Unitarian as well...he spoke of Providence only when it came to religion, hired a Unitarian minister for his army, and was called a Deist by a minister who knew him, although he was officially Anglican (he officially quit going to church when his neice's minister chided him for consistantly leaving before communion).

Anything that encourages common sense and an abandonment of supersition, I encourage. I don't want to kill faith...I'll let it die a natural death. But some people just need to take baby steps away from superstition and dogmatic programming designed purely for the power and wealth of the clergy.
Dropinin , 20.07.2005, 3:11pm link
yah, deism sounds like there's a god, but he's over there making nachoes and doesn't really care to badly about what you do with his creation. fine by me, i don't care about ones religion, but i'm very prepared to defend my beleifs should someone attack, as we all do.

,.,.,';....;',.,.,-grr! i be eatin' toast!
Shaggy , 20.07.2005, 6:08pm link
I have done some thinking (yes, even E_D can think :) on Pascal's wager.
Lets look at it from a statistical point of view.
Our universe consists of believers and nonbelievers.
Assumption:
A believer will go to paradise and a nonbeliever to eternal torment in hell.

Let p be the probability God exists.

Let X be a random variable. Let b a believer, ~b be nonbeliever.

In the believers's world:

X(b) = infinity
and
X(~b) = -infinity

Think of X, as a payoff function.

To the believer: p =1 (100% chance god exists).

Expected payoff for the believer, = infinity (p) + -infinity * (1-p).
= infinity + 0 = infinity.

(I know I have to be careful multiplying -infinity by zero)

That is a believer will go to paradise for eternity.

In the atheist's world:

X(b) = 0 and
X(~b) = -infinity


To the nonbeliever, p is something like 0.00000001, or smaller. None of you atheists can rule God out, not even Brother Jeff. p can never be zero. There has to be some chance God exists.


The atheist's expected payoff = -infinity *(0.000000001) + 0 * (1-0.000000001), which is -infinity.
As long as there is a minute chance God exists, the atheist's payoff is -infinity, (eternal torment in hell).

It makes sense to believe.

At least I tried.
E_D , 21.07.2005, 12:40am link
There is a chance a "god" exists....sure. HOWEVER, were it to exist it could not possibly exist as described so far in all of the myths, korans, bibles, torahs...etc. This god would have to be something completely different and, since previously not known, it would logically be irrelevant in our would to this point since we know nothing of its nature.

A superior but irrelevant life form would therefore NOT be a god and just be another creature in our vast universe (who was perhaps very impressive).

I just spent 5 days camping on the Yuba River in the Sierra Nevada. If Tim let us post pictures I would show you proof that very simple natural processes, given enough time, can create unimaginable beauty all by themselves.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 21.07.2005, 1:56am link
Okay, let us go scientifically....a bit more scientifically than your little mathmatical equation, as you simply pulled the numbers from your shorts.

We know that there have been experiements as of recently to prove that prayer "works", whereby if prayer works, i.e. then a God must be.

However, what has been shown in the news media has been the very few so-called scientific experiements that would seem to indicate that prayer works...and some of them show that even the prayer of Wiccans and Buddhists are just as effective as those of Christians. Unfortunately, none of these earlier studies was a double-blind study...that is, none of them went through the process of having patients that were told they were being prayed for, but no prayer was done. (With most medical studies for new drugs, half of the participants recieve a sugar pill instead of the medication itself.)

So far as I know, there has only been two double-blind studies done, the largest by Cardiologist Dr. Mitch Krucoff. (His study was conducted with five times as many patients as the Duke University study.) His conclusions show that there was absolutely no difference in the patients who were prayed for, and those not prayed for. The results of the Duke University prayer study were tainted by the fact that all of the patients (not just the 30 prayed for) were involved in other forms of alternative healing.

So, we have an interesting conclusion.
1). God exists, and doesn't give a shit.

2). God doesn't exist.

Either conclusion means that there is no point in believing.


Now, there has been a number of interesting sociological studies.

First, some scientists flew an airplane over a primitive area where there had been no airplane before. A year later, they came back on foot, to find the natives sitting next to a grass airplane, looking up to the sky, hoping that this God would return.

Secondly, if you look at some old religious paintings, you will find what appears to be UFO's in the pictures. Since I don't know whether we have been visited or not, I'm not going to say that God is an alien...but, there you go.

And finally, recent studies dealing with the religious beliefs of those in prison, as well as the religious beliefs of those who get divorced, show that the more strongly religious are more likely to get divorced, and are over-represented in our prison system, whereas the little to non-religious are least likely to get divorced, and are VASTLY under-represented in the prison system. During a time when atheists were thought to be only 12% of the overall population of the United States, they still only comprised .05% of the prison population.

Conclusion? We use deities to explain that which we ourselves cannot understand, and despite all claims of superior morals, the least religious one is. Also, we have noticed in other studies that the tendency towards disbelief also tends to follow the higher I.Q. Thus, the greater the capacity to reason, the greater the capicity to see the world through eyes different than what we have been taught.

And finally, we have the way in children are brought up to be religious. When a child questions the beliefs he is being taught, he scolded. When he doesn't question, but rather follows with the crowd, he is rewarded and praised. Anyone raised in THAT environment is surely going to believe because they are taught that belief=reward. The same is currently being done in Africa for FGM (female genital mutilation, equivilant to a guy getting his John Thomas comletely cut off). The female that refuses is called a witch, sometimes even threatened with death until they run away or the surgury is employed. The female that consents is praised, remains in good standing with the community, becomes wife and mother...that is, if they don't die from the surgury.

And of course, we know the horrors that have been conducted in the name of belief. Terrorism (and yes, I include the recent Christian and Hindu terrorists as well), mutilation, child abuse, murdering children, serial killers.


So no, scientifically, it does not make sense to believe. If anything, it comes to the point of being repugnant, and offending to the moral senses.

I know, you tried...but, you know, there is the I.Q. thingy....
Dropinin , 22.07.2005, 12:28am link
God damn that was beautiful. Almost brought a tear to my eye.

Religion and the "god head" is nothing more than a repository for all that is evil, frightened and ignorant in man. THat largely explains the cruelty. Its easier for many I suppose to see this horror looking back at them from afar.

The more one rises on his own intellectual legs and reasons his fear under control, the less one need a god as a foil and repository for all that is dark that he finds within himself.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 22.07.2005, 2:37am link
that was brilliant. well thought out and it reminds me of how the sugar pill psychology (i'll call it) shows that sometimes recovery is just all in your head.
Shaggy , 22.07.2005, 6:08am link
Hi E_D,

You said: "I have done some thinking (yes, even E_D can think :) on Pascal's wager.
Lets look at it from a statistical point of view.
Our universe consists of believers and nonbelievers.
Assumption:
A believer will go to paradise and a nonbeliever to eternal torment in hell."

Good thinking, but a thing or two I'd calculate differently. I hope you see what I'm trying to say here.

I'm looking over your math now, one thing I want to point out is the assumption that in the atheist's world, you're assuming our X(b)=0, while I think if you make the assumption X(b)= infinity for the believer, then that requires the believer to believe in ALL gods, not just a christian, muslim, hindu, etc one in order for your p=1. To me a better representation would be for the atheists'

X(b)=(infinity-1/infinity)

since the only difference between a one god assuming believer and a non-believer (or atheist) is one god out of an infinite selection. In other words our 'payoff' would calculate out to

p= 1 - (1/infinity).

So the difference in outcomes between you going to heaven and me burning in hell, in other words the christian god existing, is 1/infinity, although infinity doesn't work to well in game theory equations if I remember my statistics math from a couple decades ago. Infinity makes my brain hurts, thanks E_D ;-). The odds are equal though if you as a believer choose the wrong god, and that god punishes those who don't believe in him(or it or her). Or that a god only allows those who disbelieve all gods to enter heaven, then I go, you burn, so MY CHANCES with Pascal's wager actually are EXACTLY THE SAME as yours. Remember infinity allows for a lot of possibilities like that, no matter how small. That's the problem with using infinity in equations like this. Metaphysics or supernaturals just don't add up too well in real world maths.

I'll take my chances that since I've never seen evidence of supernaturals or the handiwork of any type of god, as they're the same as yours. No regrets, no fear.



AA.
AccursedAtheist , 22.07.2005, 7:15am link
Tim: Forgive me for going off topic. But this joke made me laugh...

It got crowded in heaven, so, for one day it was decided only to accept people who had really had a bad day on the day they died. St.Peter was standing at the pearly gates and said to the first man, "Tell me about the day you died." The man said, "Oh, it was awful. I was sure my wife was having an affair, so I came home early to catch her with him. I searched all over the apartment but couldn't find him anywhere. So I went out onto the balcony, we live on the 25th floor, and found this man hanging over the edge by his fingertips. I went inside, got a hammer, and started hitting his hands. He fell, but landed in some bushes. So, I got the refrigerator and pushed it over the balcony and it crushed him. The strain of the act gave me a heart attack, and I died."

St. Peter couldn't deny that this was a pretty bad day, and since it was a crime of passion, he let the man in.

He then asked the next man in line about the day he died. "Well, sir, it was awful," said the second man. "I was doing aerobics on the balcony of my 26th floor apartment when I twisted my ankle and slipped over the edge. I managed to grab the balcony of the apartment below, but some maniac came out and started pounding on my fingers with a hammer. Luckily I landed in some bushes. But, then the guy dropped a refrigerator on me!"

St. Peter chuckled, let him into heaven and decided he could really start to enjoy this job.

"Tell me about the day you died?", he said to the third man in line. "OK, picture this, I'm naked, hiding inside a refrigerator..."
anywherebutneverland [Email], 22.07.2005, 9:21pm link
Thanks AA for your insight on Pascal's wager.
At least you commented on the mathematics rather than jump around the issue like Dropinin did.
AA, have you listened to Stem? Great kick ass band. Can't wait till they come into town. I'm going to pick the Judas Priest CD you recommended.
If the music is too loud , your getting old.
Anywherebutneverland, that's hilarious-- great joke.

My heart goes out to the people living in the UK. I will pray for all of them tonight.
E_D , 23.07.2005, 3:14am link
Hi Shaggy,

you said: "i myself still suck at the guitar (acoustic, having tot each myself) but i recently found some easy to paly music, rage agaisnt the machine's, time bomb or something like that. eventually I hope to be able to mimik Emppo Vuorien chords."

Have you tried any software to help you learn the guitar better. I started playing a little over 2 years ago, self-taught, just with whatever I could find. I suck less at each day, at least I hope. Try powertab from :

http://www.power-tab.net/downloads.php

It's like having a free personal guitar teacher. There's thousands of songs in PT format, all free at another site called powertabs.net, and it'll also convert MIDI's and let you learn from them too. Check it out if you haven't yet.


Hope this helps.


AA
AccursedAtheist , 23.07.2005, 7:08am link
Hi E_D,

I'll check out a couple of tunes from Stem. Any recommendations?

I think you'll like the JP I recommended. I know you said you like 80's metal, well most of it was copied from JP! Enjoy.

AA
AccursedAtheist , 23.07.2005, 7:17am link
i actually use tabs, and i ahve i taught my self with raoring success bombtrack from rage agaisnt the machine. not sure why i chose that one, but it came up and i got it in an hour or so
Shaggy , 23.07.2005, 7:55am link
'Preciate the comments from the non-trolls.

I'd try taking a few lessons. Stay away from the community colleges, though...their courses suck. (You spend two or three classes just holding your guitar...) I'd look for someone already a professional musician. I took a few years of lessons with Jim Hansen...of course, I could already play piano by then, but there are just some things a guitar teacher can point out that a book or software can't. TAB is great, but you might want to learn to read music, too, in case you expand out to other instruments. Its comes in handy now that my oldest kid (never the musician, always the scientist) HAS to learn to play the recorder at school...I've been able to TAB out a few songs for him that he's interested in practicing (like Bagzilla or Hedwig's Theme), and that's helped him jump ahead in levels.
Dropinin , 23.07.2005, 2:10pm link
Oops. My bad. Eric Hansen was his name.

Damn. Been too many years since I've seen him.
Dropinin , 23.07.2005, 3:14pm link
Appreciate the comments from the Metal Heads and non IQ challenged.

Hi AA, get the album Forever Up. Stem reminds me of Slip knot.

Hockey is back!! and the Vancouver Canucks are the 2006 stanley cup champs.

AA, I think your from Ontario, so your probably a leafs fan.

Time to go for a ride with my baby (vettes rule) cranking up Judas Priest and Stem. Where's UK girl these days? Bet you she's cute.

GO CANUCKS GO!!! Bertuzzi rules!!
E_D , 24.07.2005, 2:21am link
So, I would gather by your attempts to flame rather than offer counter-arguments, E_D that you are conceding that Dropinin is right, or are you simply unable to offer a counter-arguement to scientific and sociological studies? Lets rehash those conclusions in a nutshell.
Atheists and agnostics are morally superior.
Religion has to use threats in order to remain alive.
The latest double-blind studies show that God either doesn't care or doesn't exist, thus it is a useless excercise to believe.
Personally, I think Dropinin shouldn't have even bothered wasting his or her time upon you. After all, rather than attempting to counter any of the information he or she has ever put forth, all you have ever done is be dismissive. I am quite sure that it is difficult to argue with a theologian member of MENSA, but could you at least try?
Xiomburg , 24.07.2005, 3:18pm link
lets not try to reignite old issues, shall we? let's not forget how long it took last time to solve the problems.

oh, i use tabs, an i can read music. however, i have yet to find any notes for green day or nightwish, so i guess i'm using tabs till then.
Shaggy , 25.07.2005, 3:45am link
theres no point learning nightwish as itl all sound wierd unless u are playing with a keyboard and and orchestra also. What u wanna learn is some Children of Bodom or Slayer, They've got the best riffs u will ever hear. Once u go Bodom theres no turning back, long live Finnish heavy metal !!!
dodge , 25.07.2005, 3:14pm link
i like the guitarist, particularly in 'crownless'. and 'wish i had an angel' was a decent example of finnish metal.
Shaggy , 27.07.2005, 2:33am link
i like the guys devil beard thing, that looks cool. Ive been listening to the stuff off Century Child recently, that album kicks ass, i love the song ocean soul. If u like Nightwish then u should try some other bands like After Forever, Within Temptation and Lacuna Coil, there all similar to nightwish. Another band to look out for is Evergrey, there fucking amazing.
dodge , 27.07.2005, 1:51pm link
Can we get any further off topic from the original post? Let's try!

What is the difference between Golf & Skydiving?

In Golf, you go WHACK!... "SHIT!"

In Skydiving, you go "SHIT!"... WHACK!
anywherebutneverland [Email], 30.07.2005, 12:31am link
OK i'm new here and this is my first post. ok enough of that...
First things first, the try prove / disprove the validity of Religon with Science (hehe) is not going to happen. the two are polar opposites of each other, where religon is blind faith and science is hard fact, found after theory, experimentation and finally, conclusive proof.

So this leaves us with a dilemma, because if we take this view, all arguments against religon are null and void! and also it can be said that science is small minded because it cant prove what it does not know about, nor can theorise about.

to convince a someone god does not exist, we *have to* base our arguments in theology, and if religous people want to prove the validity of their belief, KEEP THE F**K OUT OF SCIENCE!

what i'm trying to say is dont bother try convince a beliver of your views, that makes you as bad as them.

personally i think the more we try disprove the god argument, the more people will believe it. well that is until we have conclusive proof as to the non-existance of god. but this then makes belivers scientists, dont it?

what really annoys me is people using religon to justify their actions to the masses. this should be the single argument to outlaw religon, and it's texts...actually speaking of text's i really do wonder what's locked up in the vatican secret library.
Ruaidhri [Email], 30.07.2005, 4:57pm link
i had my mates round and we were watching all the bible channels on sky (channels 671-680 i think) for a laugh and i noticed some woman preaching about "do not take fruit from the tree of knowledge". this got me thinking. Adam and eve were supposedly expelled from the garden of eden from eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge (maybe wisdom tree, this is just guessin im not lookin it up), this seems to be telling us to believe blindly in religion, and were not allowed to question it. Seems to me that the ppl who wrote the bible (as it sure as hell wasnt god) knew the power of rational thought and if ppl began to question their beliefs they would quickly see that its bullshit so they took drastic steps to make sure people live in blissful ignorance of science.
dodge , 31.07.2005, 2:33am link
Its ok to have ladels-full from the well of bullshit. Just no knowledge. It makes the god-stuff unravel.

D
Sierra [Email], 31.07.2005, 5:08am link
yah, thats a kick ass beard. and i have heard lacuna coil before. love em.

why does it seem as though our conversations no longer adhere to the original topic? it's sad, because it's getting somewhat boring... we need a random psycho to just drop in or something.

how bout a new thread aout something going no today tat is a REALLY major issue (i'm too lazy to post it on my own)

has anyone heard of this website called belief-o-matic.com or something like that? (can't remember) rather interesting. actually, amusing is more i like it. someone actually had to create a website to tell people what they beleive in. though the way some people act (what do you really beleive? um...) it's sad to see some people actually have failed to assess thier situation and think about what THEY think is right, not a book tells them or their parents. reminds me of a funny little thing i heard a while ago on evolve.com, "satan loves me, this i know, the right wing bible nuts told me so"

i went to disneyland! wheeeee!

waitng for the conversation to get interesting again.
Shaggy , 02.08.2005, 6:16pm link
Sorry I haven't been around guys...Xiom and I have been a bit busy. However, I have a beautiful mural behind my computer desk to show for it.

Well, I'm not too sure if earth sciences, sociology, archeology, and history have NOT had an impact upon religious beliefs. In fact, if one looks at catagories, theology is considered a social science. But you will notice, sociologically, two things....religion is less important in the industrialized nations. The United States is highest at 45% church attendance. England and Canada are hanging around 20% church attendance. I think even Italy has a church attendance of less than 35%. However, you go into primitive nations, and their attendance/practice levels are soaring, and their fundamentalist levels are outrageous.

But all in all, my point (and Xiomburgs...he's ornery) was not to convince a Christian to leave his faith. I fully believe in personal revelation....an individual's beliefs will not change unless they have a personal revelation. What Xiomburg was doing (the little scamp) was harassing a troll, whose hobby it is to take on a persona and attempt to role-play that persona on the internet. I never expected E_D to create a counter-arguement, and I think Xiom was just trying to scare him away, or to wheedle him into something.

Well, I'm off again.

Tonks (formerly known as Dropinin), just dropping in again.
Tonks , 04.08.2005, 1:57pm link
it's kinda sad. these conversations are boring me. can we get a new thread?
Shaggy , 04.08.2005, 7:09pm link

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