Comments on So what's with this resurrection malarkey then?

Its because the tiny-minded followers of this abomination-god can't see the truth.

You are right. Why does this loving god always need a blood sacrifice? Why did he need to kill innocent children and babies in his puported flood? Why does everyone who wants to know him need to suffer so?

Even if the silly bastard existed I would have no part of him for that alone. Conceptually he is one of the cruelest entities I have ever heard described.

With a "loving god" like that you certainly don't need a devil!!

Thankfully there is no god. Its all bullshit and I am free!!

Born innocent, living free!!

D
Sierra , 28.03.2005, 9:14pm link
What evidence do you require Tim, Sierra? What are you looking for?
Is it that you just can't accept that a body can resurrect? You need to judge this by historical not scientific evidence.
Mr X , 29.03.2005, 3:12am link
Have you ever studied scholarly christian work? Perhaps they could answer your questions better than I can.
Mr X , 29.03.2005, 3:14am link
Yea, Matthew Sheppard was crucified in Wyoming. His hands where tied to the wood fence, feet bound by rope and he was beaten, bruised and cut. He was not dead when he was stung up. He died in the cold evening, alone and gay. Would the Christian God have approved of this? If so, he is immoral. "NO" Christians will say...."You do not see the big picture. God's work is not that simple. Perhaps some good came from Matthew Sheppard's death." (Yet another attempt at Christians who literally invent the playbook of rules and standards when confronted with their absurdities.) A message for the Christians: Your god is an asshole and I want no part of meeting such a being when I die.
robbie [Email], 29.03.2005, 3:42am link
Mr. X;

When I saw you write "Have you ever studied scholarly christian work?" I started laughing.

I AM STILL LAUGHING!!!!

If YOU had studied the bible yourself you would realize where it comes from and that it is a big bunch of lies.

SCREW YOUR WORTHLESS GOD.

D
Sierra [Email], 29.03.2005, 6:32am link
"I don't believe Jesus was who he claimed to be or did many of the things he was said to do" - hmm, interesting, one of the fews things i believe about all this is there was a bloke called Jesus around about 2000 years ago and i believe he did do a lot of noteworthy things, as an ultra-orthodox Jewish rebel and/or freedom fighter.

However all stuff that the catholic/christian churches later claimed he did, miracles and so forth, now that is all nonsense.

Oh, and Sierra, I asked a question about a comment of yours a while back about your claim that there are valid reasons for dropping bombs on muslims, still waiting for an answer...
bogue , 29.03.2005, 1:38pm link
"What evidence do you require" - as I've stated before, the key events in the bible are un-verifiable. Presumably if your God existed he could have resurrected Jesus, but there is no proof that he does exist or that such an event happened - and any rational thinker would require some pretty strong evidence to believe in such an extra-ordinary thing.
My point with this post however was why Jesus HAD to die to ALLOW God to forgive us.
Tim [Home], 29.03.2005, 5:30pm link
Its church members who have interpreted the teachings of Christ, incorrectly!! he did not claim to be exclusive!! He taught that we are all much greater than we know!! We are not flesh but spirit. We have power over our physicalness!! and he demonstrated that for all to see!! Instead of realizing who we really are, we turned the man Jesus into an idol of worship!! He rouse up his phisical body like a coat to deminstrate this!! Its a power we all have if we would just realize WHO WE REALLY ARE!!!!
this is for you Tim!!!
willie , 29.03.2005, 11:47pm link
Sorry....what question did you ask? I will be happy to answer....

D
Sierra , 29.03.2005, 11:56pm link
As soon as you take the silly idea of “god” out of the world you are left with the realization that all people are roughly equal. By that I mean suddenly the guys on the other side of the mountain are no longer a bunch of devil-worshiping heathens and are instead just different.

That all well and good right up to the point where their “difference” i.e. their socio-economic perspective bumps up against yours.

Suddenly trouble starts to brew. I am just honest about it. I don’t pretend that I want to covert them in some silly gods name

As this world gets more and more crowded, every faith and perspective will not be able to continue to grow and expand. There is no more territory to “discover”. People already live most places in numbers far exceeding the good old colonial years. We saw then what happens when cultures clash and one side has vastly different access to resources.

To give you a short answer, I have no problem with bombing the muslim world back into the stone age and taking their resources. Ultimately they seek to do that to us.

As the world population continues to swell and the vast vast majority will do NOTHING for birth/population control what do you think is going to happen. The individual share of resources will shrink and the price will rise. National economies will fail. That’s when the swords come out.

Why not just do it now so fewer have to die?
Sierra , 30.03.2005, 12:07am link
Whoever killed Matthew Sheppard were not christians. Why do you assume that they were christians.
What you don't understand is that this is a fallen world and evil will happen. God is not responsible for evil. Your human judgements can not be applied to God.
God promises a safe landing not a safe passage.
The flood had to happen because the genetic line of humans was contaminated by demons and that the eventual redeemer couldn't have a demonic bloodline.
There are credible and viable explanations of why things have happened.
Try and think about them before applying judgements to God. Remember, it is God who will judge you. Argue all you want, you will not win.
Accept Jesus and live by the commandments is all God asks.
Those who commit attrocities in God's name are not christians.
Sierra, I never realized what a right wing fascist you are.It's easy to love the people who are easy to love. The real challenge is to love the people who are hard to love.
Mr X , 30.03.2005, 1:05am link
Try reading some of Grant Jeffrey's books. The picture will become clearer.
As much as you don't like it, this is way it happened. God sent his son to earth to die for our sins. The wages of sin is death.
Keep laughing Sierra, you won't be on judgement day. You can complain all you want, and make all the claims you want about christians. What you will respond when God in the white throne asks you the question " what does it have to do with you?"
He sent his son to redeem you and you rejected him. That isn't very wise is it?
Mr X , 30.03.2005, 1:14am link
This is not a "fallen" world. I'm not fallen. I was born innocent into whatever mess this (if he existed) god-butthole created. I should judge him.

What incompetence. This surely must be his first try at it. He's probably the last god on the block to take a stab at "world making".

I bet all the other gods laugh at him for letting things get so out of control. "Hey ""god"", how everying going with that deiseas, death and disobedience mess you created????"

And....its not that I love only the people who are easy to love....I am willing to compete with everyone for scarce resources. More often than not "hard to love" people are so because they are trying to kill you and take your stuff.

Remember, "god" did say...be fruitful and multiply. Well, that fruitfulness has to come at someone's expense so it might as well start with the mulsims.

Their god commands the same. I figure they will understand.

D
Sierra , 30.03.2005, 1:19am link
Sierra,
in Toronto, Ontario Canada, a five year old girl was tossed from a bridge onto highway 401 by her father who committed suicided by jumping as well.
She not only survived, but the prayers of christians and muslims was heard by God, and she came out of her coma. You see, Sierra, explain to me how this is not a miracle. God proved himself to me. The story is in the Toronto Star, Toronto Sun and the Globe and Mail.
Only a miracle from God saved this child.
Mr X , 30.03.2005, 1:19am link
Its not a miracle...its luck....
Sierra , 30.03.2005, 1:22am link
I got dragged by a boat one time and almost drowned.....ALMOST. The point is that I got lucky.

A silly invisible man did not come down and release the tow rope.

I just lucked out.

D
Sierra , 30.03.2005, 1:23am link
Sierra, life is a miracle, you, Tim are miracles. The invisible man did free you from the rope. You didn't just luck out.
Meditate, and ask God to reveal himself. God's only voice is silence. The silence between your thoughts is where God comes in.

Peace .
Mr X , 30.03.2005, 3:10am link
That's funny--christian scholar-isn't that an oxymoron?
albert maas [Email], 30.03.2005, 3:11am link
Hey that tsunami was a real miracle !
cranker [Email], 30.03.2005, 3:14am link
"God's only voice is silence."

how convenient!
CHRISTOPHER , 30.03.2005, 7:25am link
Do you mean he will reveal himself the was he did in Auschwitz? or with 9/11? or the recent Tsunami? Or countless other times in similar situations?

The only miracle is the fact that you and people like you waste your lives worshiping something that does not exist.

What a waste.

God does not exist.

D
Sierra [Email], 30.03.2005, 7:47am link
I must appologize for the Christians who hide behind the concept of "judgement day" to argue for the truth of Christianity. Any Christian who truly believes in real places called heaven and hell has not seriously examined themselves or their faith. Christianity, simply put, is a world view that one voluntarily adopts in an attempt to find a compassionate and peaceful way of existing in society. Granted, it is easy to deride Christianity because of its obvious contradictions and superstitions, but Christianity also espouses a worldview of self sacrifice, forgiveness, and charity. Additionally, Christians are countercultural- we are not slaves to consumerism. If you find a worldview that helps you live your life on a path to a fate we all share, I say all the power to you. However, in living your life, do not blind yourself to the truth that can be gleaned from Jesus's message.
Orlando , 30.03.2005, 9:16am link
Ah, drop bombs on people as they have something you want...

Nice one. I see your valid, logical reasoning there. Some people on this planet hope that mankind will grow out of this immature mindset, someday at least.

Very enlightened of you, Sierra, I assume it's not just muslims that come under this heading, but basically any people/country you can threaten, beat up, enslave and eventually destroy?
bogue , 30.03.2005, 1:38pm link
Bogue -

Look...lets be real. Does that not go on every day everywhere? The only difference is that most people don't resort to killing. Its very much an me vs. them world. I say me!

Its not just muslims....but they are they ones least set up to play the way my world works. By my world I mean a civil-rights based capitalist market economy which is largely anti-theistic. Muslims are largely theocratic closed-market, backwards, anti-rights zealots who happen to have their hands on a resource I need. Look how they treat their women. Need I say more? I submit to you that ending the suffering of muslim women alone is justification for killing those bastards. The resources are just a nice cherry.

Ya know....we could just as easily have ignored WWII. After all, if we apply the liberal anti-iraq-war dogma Germany was no threat to the US. The reality is that we HAD to go...if for no other reason than to stop the murder of the jews. The fact that we prevented Germany from controling the bulk of the worlds oil supply is just a nice bonus.


And to Orlando...you are correct. If read as a moral guide Christianity is fine. The bible can sit on the shelf next to the boy scout manual, a nice pagan earth text and a tome on religous-agnostic social responsibility.

The problem is that most people take the bible literally and then begin to try and force those views on others. If they want to believe, fine. Let them waste their lives. But I want no part of it. I want to be able to buy lotter tickets, alcohol and watch pornography to my hearts content. I don't want to be shunned because I had premarital sex, I don't want "creationism" taught in the schools and I don't want the progress of science impeded by notions of morality. I don't want to have to pretend life begins at conception, that every life is part of a "gods" plan and that only this "god" can judge.

Believe if you must, but keep it to yourself.

D
Sierra , 30.03.2005, 5:08pm link
Life is miracle. Know that there is an invisible force that permeates
this universe.
A little seedling has "treeness" in it that you can't see or feel or measure
, but it's there.
How do you account for that Sierra? Tim?

It's the space between the bars that holds the tiger and the silence
between the notes that makes the music.

God's beautiful voice is silence. Have one moment of silence today and you
will know God.
Sierra, when you see the muslims as us and not them, your hate for them will end and vice -versa.
This is a "uni-verse", ie. one song, and we are all one.

You want a peaceful world? A peaceful world will exist when it is filled with people full of inner peace.

Don't let your ego deceive you Sierra, go within and find that peace.
Mr X , 31.03.2005, 12:55am link
Interesting that you bring WWII into it for two reasons.

First, you state the US had to enter the war to protect the Jews, however there are a lot of people out there who would describe Israel as "largely [if not totally] theocratic closed-market, backwards, anti-rights zealots", especially if you happen to be Palestinian. Does this mean Israel is on your list of countries to bomb back to the stone age?

Second, Germany in WWII was, as far as I can gather, following exactly the sort of policy you advocate - i.e. take what you want from others if you don't have it yourself. In Germany's case it was, amongst other things, Liebensraum, or living space, and the Caucasus oilfields, that it wanted.

I agree that the muslim world has a lot of negatives within it, but as a Westerner I don't think you , or I, can occupy any kind of moral high ground, certainly not enough to condemn the entire region/religion to death because you want their oil.

No one, I'm afraid, has that right.
bogue , 31.03.2005, 1:06am link
Perhaps the Jewish thing was a bad example.

And as far as Mr. X (I mean Obi Wan) goes...giveme a break. Nothingness is not proof of God.

Its all bullshit.

D
Sierra [Email], 31.03.2005, 2:07am link
Plenty of Oil in the province of alberta in Canada. The tar sands of Albert possibly contain more oil than the entire middle office. Why not develop the technology to get it out instead of promoting hatred against muslims?
The fact that we are debating God is proof of his existence. You know he exists Sierra. Your ego is dominating your life.
Mr X , 31.03.2005, 2:25am link
sorry, I meant entire middle east.
Damn keyboard.
Mr X , 31.03.2005, 2:26am link
Mr X

Your ignorance is dominating your life.
cranker [Email], 31.03.2005, 3:14am link
Does Santa Claus exist? I am only saying this because (according to Mr X) if we debate it then it proves his existence. Yay!! Please everyone, start debating this.
Yahoo , 31.03.2005, 3:15am link
PS Mr X wrote on 24.02.2005, 12:23am:

"Mr. y, start with your brain, you need a lobotomy. After yourself, help the other fools on this website.
Mr X"

Is this the kind of inner peace you were hoping would spread to all mankind? Or is this more what you had in mind?

"The dumbass's that write on this site will spend eternity in hell where not one drop of water will be available to cool your tongues.
mr_x " at 18.02.2005, 12:16am

[by the way - did you include yourself as a dumbass writing on this site? see you in hell, don't forget to bring water]
Yahoo , 31.03.2005, 3:23am link
You must be nuts X. I am not debating anything. I am telling you for a fact the worthless bastard does not exist. There is no debate.

D
Sierra [Email], 31.03.2005, 7:45am link
Man was made for joy and woe, and when this we rightly know, through the world see safely go. Joy and Woe are woven fine, a clothing for the soul divine.
The joy and woe we see is part of the perfection of it all. Your opinions of the infinite spirit that holds everything together are just opinions of how God should be orchestrating this play. You are here to fulfill a mission , a have a purpose for being in the world. Find that purpose, and you will have peace in your life.
Mr X , 31.03.2005, 1:50pm link
Sierra, you keep talking about God that way because you truly believe God exists. The anger is part of your way to connect to God. Use meditation and love and try to connect that way. God is waiting for you, give him a call.
Mr X , 31.03.2005, 1:53pm link
X -

This is a classic example of why religion is bullshit. When faced with solid, overwhlming proof of something (I this case the fact that I don't believe) you wax poetic and start telling me that my lack of faith is proof of my faith.

If thats all you got you are as impotent as the heartless diety you claim to worship.

To put it your way:

"Your constant defense of the imagined diety, coupled with your instence in the creation myth proves that you really don't believe and are simply trying desperately to reassure yourself that your worshipful silliness is a logical thing to do given your lack of faith."

Well X, you proved it. You don't believe after all.

D
Sierra , 31.03.2005, 4:55pm link
Brilliant, Sierra. I could not have put it more plainly.

God is horseshit. Ghosts, goblins, fairies, angels, devils...ALL PURE GRADE A 100% BOOOLSHEE-AHT
Trannon , 31.03.2005, 7:57pm link
Sierra, you haven't ruled out God because you keep writing your diatribe about him every night.
You can't be taken seriously. You believe, and you know it. Connect to the infinite source.
Mr X , 01.04.2005, 2:40am link
We are all on the same path, just different stages along the path. YOu are complete at each stage on the path.
The path is to reconnect to God. Try connecting today, be still, and know that God is there.
Mr X , 01.04.2005, 2:46am link
judge not, judge ot, lest you be judged.
The finite can not judge the infinite.
Mr X , 01.04.2005, 2:48am link
You got that crap about the "path" right I suppose. Its just most of the people here are much much farther along than you.

Needing the "god daddy" is a sign of severe developmental immaturity.

You prove your disbelief by writing about it here all the time.

Accept that the finite can recognize that which does not exist.

D
Sierra [Email], 01.04.2005, 7:58am link
"The fact that he has not gone back to hospital is (shows) that he is serenely carrying the cross and ready to give up and to say 'It is finished'," said John Magee, Bishop of Cloyne in Ireland

No what it shows is that he can't follow his own directive to preserve life where possible.
Redfred [Email][Home], 01.04.2005, 5:58pm link
There is no "god"... I mean, give me proof that "god" exists at all. And don't give me all that bible crap. It's just a book written with a bunch of rules and legends of Christianity. Where is the proof? A book is a book. A book tells stories. There you go. I mean no offense to the Christian people or churches. I am just speaking my mind. If you would like to reach me, e-mail me at maximusw44@hotmail.com I would really like to hear what anyone has to say about religion.
Max [Email], 01.04.2005, 6:36pm link
On the contrary...I mean GREAT OFFENSE to Christians. The more offended they are the happier I am. I live in a world controlled by their babble. In some states you can't buy alcohol on sunday. I have to see crosses everywhere I go.

Enough. If I have to be offended then let them be.

By the way. I decided to put a curse on religion. If there is no god then I asked mother nature to make the pope very sick and cause him to die.

D
Sierra , 01.04.2005, 7:10pm link
Listen Sierra, I agree with you on many points. I mean, religion IS bullshit, and Muslims are a repressive people. But your imperialist, fascist attitude sickens me. What you are basically arguing for is strength politics- the survival of those who can destroy the enemy. And yet you condemn the Nazis for Auswitz! It amounts to the same thing. And while I appreciate that violence is almost omnipresent in the modern world, it IS getting better and the world is becoming more liberal minded, intelligent and empathetic with fello humans. The real question is, how can you rationalise away the moral monstocity that is the slaughter of innocent people? Don't feed me that crap about helping Muslim women- you'd kill more than you save. Just look at Iraq- more people have been killed by coalition forces than by the insurgents themselves! And while I'm not arguing for Saddam Hussein's repressive control, I feel that the US has simply lowered itself to that level, if not lower. A policy of aggressive imperialism will never be the answer- it will simply create more support for the opposition. You cannot defeat the entire Eastern world and Musilm religion by force. Oh and while I'm at it, I might as well add that it was in fact the Nazis that declared war on the US, and not vice versa.
Latin_lover [Email], 02.04.2005, 12:23am link
Look...

Its not like I advocate attacking Canada.

There is the problem. The middle east controls a lot of the world oil and use that as a chip to control and influence world politics and economies. We have the worlds most powerful military. We use THAT to control and influence world politics and economies.

Gas was at $20 a barrel a few years ago. Now its near $60. Don't tell me that demand has tripled and caused this rise. It is the whole idea behind an OPEC quota. The could open the taps and still be very rich. Everyone could have cheap energy and the world could grow.

But no...they have to screw around.

Fine. Lets go screw with them.

This WILL happen eventually. Its probably better to do it now BEFORE China and some of the other big-demand nations come fully on line.

The fact that we get to wipe out a bunch of repressive muslims is a bonus.

We did this in America with "manifest destiny". Wrong or right, it worked.

D
Sierra , 02.04.2005, 12:48am link
Screw around, Sierra? Tell your government to lower the fuel tax instead of blaming the middle eastern governments.
I'm quite sure when the Arab countries import food from the US that they pay premium $$$ for the food.
Do some research, before you write on this web-board Sierra. Stop listening to righwing fascist radio in the US.
Mr X , 02.04.2005, 5:11am link
US govt should stop screwing around with other people's countries. If they do, the terrorists will go home.

www.whatreallyhappened.com

Your own govt set up 9/11 in order to take away your freedoms.
Mr X , 02.04.2005, 5:12am link
I really don't see whats so great about god. I mean, even a christian would have to admit that the bible contradicts it self so many times. Christians come up with some really crazy stuff, like the virgin Mary? Jesus died then he got ressurected? How can there be a heaven when, when you die you lose 21 grams, supposedly your soul, and so your soul being heavier than air isn't going to go up, but, down.
Gwen [Email], 02.04.2005, 5:42am link
It like this...

Religion is bullshit. The bible is contradictory bullshit. When the contradictions are uncovered (essentially as it drys out)cracks begin to form. The only thing you can fill the cracks with (and have it match) is more of the same bullshit. Pretty soon all you have is this huge ball of bullshit. Way down deep inside is the basis for the ball, the "rules to live by", but there is so much shit piled on top you will never see it.

Then, when you ask the shit pilers about whats inside, they say "god". Only the people who look carefully are able to see the cracks in the bullshit.

D
Sierra [Email], 02.04.2005, 6:06am link
Who gives a crap? You know what I hate more than some crybaby Christian preaching a bunch of crap to me? Crybaby little girls whining about how there is no God. I don't know which ones worse. Thats why we evolved thumbs, so when people complain, I can gouge your eyes out. Fucking complainers.
The Pope , 02.04.2005, 12:35pm link
If belief in God is nonsense, just say so and end the debate. No need to discuss any more. This website only proves that God exists. God does exist and as much as you want to "rationalize" it away, you can't .
Mr X , 02.04.2005, 7:36pm link
Mr.X - before I answer any of the points made here, perhaps you should go and read the post entitled "some basics", which gives the reason why I started this site.

BTW, 52 comments so far and no one has actually answered my original question ...
Tim [Home], 02.04.2005, 8:09pm link
Tim, who cares about the basics? You keep this debate going on and oand on ... You have already concluded that God doesn't exist and no matter what I say, won't change your mind.
It's over, shut down the website, God doesn't exist and religion is bullshit. Ok, you win Tim.

*******BUT****
You really don't believe what your saying Tim. Just like Sierra, you believe in GOd and deep down you want to connect to him. I connected to him while in Hawaii.
Mr X , 02.04.2005, 9:21pm link
Tim,
connect to GOd. GOd is waiting, and the energy that moves the stars, the waves across the water, and the thoughts in your mind, is within you. You can discover this if you are willing to open your mind.
Go within, and know that God is there.
Mr X , 02.04.2005, 9:23pm link
The Pope has died.
Pope John Paul II [Email][Home], 02.04.2005, 11:14pm link
Thank goodness. One less lying bastard.

D
Sierra [Email], 03.04.2005, 2:02am link
I have a question.....

Since all the religous types consider the pope to be god representative on earth, and the cardinals are just below that....

How, pray tell, if the pope is infallible and so is the bible....

How can the vote for the new pope be other than unanimous on the first vote?

How can there be a need for other than one vote?

D
Sierra [Email], 03.04.2005, 5:24am link
Don't you just love internet proselytizers? Anyway, to answer Sierra's last question, voting has been the Roman form of Christianity all along. Every single book in the Bible was voted in by those Bishops who were actually able to come to the council of Nicea (which was an extreme minority). This is the number one reason why the Bible, and the Bible God, seems almost schizophrenic to those of us who haven't turned off our "God-given brains" (to use a Deist phrase). They took a whole collection of books on the opinions of God, or a collection of sayings attributed to the alledged Jesus, and voted whether they liked them or not. I find it rather interesting, considering the earliest writings about Jesus (one of them known as the Gospel of the Hebrews) makes no mention of Satan, and actually includes the holy spirit as being God's wife. (And Yes, there is a Hebrew prayer to the Bride of Heaven...God's female counterpart).

"Connect to God. God is waiting." Actually, it's humans who have been waiting 1950+ years for God. Does anyone wonder why atheism, agnosticism, Deism, and other beliefs centered on logic and common sense has been rising in numbers the world over? Or even the lure of other faiths, such as Paganism and Buddhism (hey, if talking about something makes it real, as Mr. X hinted at, then they must all be real). I mean, most people would be ticked off if their friend was 20 minutes late meeting them at the restaurant!!! And here Jesus said that it would happen in the generation of his disciples (The last died aproximately 1900 years ago.) *sigh*. Well, if Jesus didn't lie, then the rapture already happened, and we're all the screwballs that have been left behind, and God isn't around to help any of us. At best, he's simply being rude. Or maybe Jesus did come back, and Christians simply didn't recognize him because the story has been messed with so much. But frankly, seeing the way "true believers" are, I wouldn't come back either. I'd say, "Aw, to Hell with all of you."
dropinin , 04.04.2005, 12:06am link
Sorry, reading back through the posts, Tim is asking again for someone to explain it all to him. (Missed it earlier.) Frankly, Tim, I have studied theology for many, many, many years.

The simpler truth goes like this...Rome declared that any person causing trouble during the Jewish Holiday would be crucified. Pure and simple. A number of would-be Messiah's caused trouble. And if the story of Jesus is true, then Jesus caused trouble by having a hissy fit in the temple, and was thus crucified. As to what happened after, there are two different rumors. One says that the bitter drink Jesus was given on the cross was a heroin-like drug, used by Middle East doctors to put people into coma's so they could operate on them (Romans were deplorable when it came to medicine). The other alledgedly comes from Mary Magdalene, in which Jesus DID die, and his body was stolen from the grave by his disciples, and they made up the resurrection story later. Then Paul made up the crap about Jesus having died for our sins in his little Pauline cult.

Now, that's a scientific explanation. But as for the faithful explaination...I'm sorry to disappoint you Tim, but you'll just have to turn off the logic part of your brain. Then you'll understand it. Unfortunately, I cannot. But I have a very simple answer for those who do believe it....Mankind's downfall was caused by his free-will. BibleGod created mankind with freewill. Ergo, the mistake was that of the BibleGod, not mine, and I'm not going to apologize for having been born (or "Created", as the Christians put it.) Its like giving birth to a red-head and expected that child to apologize for having red hair.
dropinin , 04.04.2005, 12:59am link
Keep talking atheists. The more you write and debate, the more you really believe. If it's all nonsense as you claim, then don't post up any more of your diatribe against christians and other believers. It's over, and you've won.
Or is it really over?
Stop playing games, and trying to be intellectual. You know this universe did not come from nowhere.
Stop judging, be silent and connect to the infinite spirit that holds everything together. It's not gluons, that holds this universe together, it's God.
Mr X , 04.04.2005, 1:33am link
Tim, Sierra you can't rationalize God out of your life. NO matter how much you try using science and logic to get rid of GOd, you just can't do it. There is still a lingering doubt in your mind, that just won't go away. This is why Tim keeps asking questions. He is desperate to have someone convince him that God exists. Be silent, meditate and your question will be answered. If you knew who walked beside you everyday, fear would be impossible.
Mr X , 04.04.2005, 1:36am link
A seedling has "treeness" in it. You can't measure it , touch it, or see it. But it's there isn't it Tim? How do you account for this? The "treeness" is the seed's connection to God.
Mr X , 04.04.2005, 1:38am link
You know...you are right X, I can't get "god" out of my life.

My god dammed money says "In god we trust". Congress opens with a prayer. The news is all ruined cause an old man in Rome died.

You are right. I can't get it out of my life.

I agree with you and support you in your lack of faith Mr. X. The more you post the more I see your pain at trying to worship something you know to be false.

Every bible has bullshit-ness in it. It is the writers implicit connection to the cruel hypocritical toilet from which it sprang.

Flush it from your life and you will be FREE.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 04.04.2005, 2:40am link
Please excuse me but this is my first time to do this, so I'm not really sure how it works, but I would like to comment. Surely some of you realise that religion has nothing to do with God. It is an invention of humans used to control the masses. It and science have managed to confuse us to nearly to the point of no return. Each person has to find God him/herself. I hope this comment will add to your discusion and that I am not imposing. X
Mag [Email], 04.04.2005, 9:32pm link
There is no god. There is nothing to look into yourself to find but self confidence, learning, wisdom and the like.

"Religion" is the active form, "God" is the passive form....its all bullshit.

None of it is real. It's a nice story....but thats all it is.

D
Sierra , 04.04.2005, 9:41pm link
Tim, I will try to answer your questions about the 'Miracle' of Easter. With a little help from my friend Jack Chick that is.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp

That ought to clear things up for you. Nice and clear in fact.
seattleslough [Email][Home], 05.04.2005, 10:19am link
Boy was that a load of crap. I especially love the part about the mansion in the sky. Exactly where is that and what is it made of?

Boy oh boy oh boy....BULLSHIT!!!!


There is no god.

d
Sierra , 05.04.2005, 3:57pm link
I forget who said it...

"I don't know if god exists . . but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't."
Lisa [Email][Home], 06.04.2005, 9:43pm link
To Lisa:
It was Jules Renard.

To Mag: Got no problem with it. I myself feel that if a God does exist, its probably the God of Deism. (I'm a bit more agnostic than atheist...except when a Christian prays for me, then I slip into atheism). However, I myself know that most atheists do realize the difference in religion and God. They go through the same process that a Deist goes through, they just come to a different conclusion, like any scientist.

To Mr. X...
Goodness me, but you are a funny man. I gather you have never studied botany, nor did any type of agriculture. First you might want to learn the difference between a seed and a seedling. A "seedling" already looks like a tiny version of the adult plant. A "seed" (which you were describing) is highly unlikely to be fertile, less likely to become a seedling, and highly improbable to become an adult plant.

Not to mention that you are simply using a version of Christian Cliche #21, "Though you say you don't believe, deep down inside, you know there is a God!" Atheists already know that game. Try a new tactic, hopefully one that hasn't been used so many times that it has become cliche. Silly, silly man.
dropinin , 07.04.2005, 2:13am link
The parts of a seed can be measured. Aside from the Seed coat, the Endosperm, the cotyledons, Hilum, and Micropyle, a fertilized seed also contains an embryo. The embryo contains the epicotyl, which will form the first leaves, the hypocotyl, which will form the stem, and the radicle, which will form the root.
Amazing what science can dissect.
Mr. X is Silly Indeed , 07.04.2005, 2:40am link
Its just like the bible....

There is the crusty bullshit coat....then the meaty bullshit filled interior...all the way down the the "holy shit" core.

Its all bullshit. Rooted in crap and watered with lies.

D
Sierra [Email], 07.04.2005, 6:53am link
Dear Tim and dear All,
I am a new Christian and I am surprised to see so much hostility towards Christianity in this forum and many others on the Internet.
I can see that many of you are of very high intellects and I am saddened that so many focus on trying to disprove the existence of God.
One question that came to mind is why there is so much anger and resentment towards Christian faith? Is this site not called 'Religion is Bullshit!'?
Also on a persona level, what happened in your lives to make you become so hostile?
You often seem to focus on arguments to reject God while ignoring many to accept Him.
What do you have to loose? Also remember what you can gain.
If there is no God, I guess you are all fine. But if there is one, are you ready for it?
I pray that all of you may come to know Christian faith for its truth, and invite my Brothers and Sisters to do the same.
God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 07.04.2005, 12:12pm link
Pascal ... your real name, or are you trying to make a lame point regarding Pascal's Wager?

Perhaps you should read my post entitled "some basics".
Tim [Home], 07.04.2005, 3:35pm link
Pascal,

Here's the reason. You and your kind chose to worship that silliness. Thats fine. Its your life.

The problem is that you and your type try to force your beliefs on others - whether socially or at the point of a sword.

I am sick and tired of you guys viewing this as a "christian" world. Yours may be, but mine and ours is not.

The greatest atrocities that have ever been committed have been done so in the name of religion - most at the hands of christians and your loving go.

I am not trying to disprove "god". I am stating factually that he does not exist. Perhaps if you spent a little MORE time trying to prove his existence you would be cured of the christian disease too. Instead, you are told to BELIEVE.

What do you have to lose by being muslim? Been to a synagoge lately. How are your budist studies going? What do you have to lose in pursuing these?

Please quit being so god-dammed niave, grow up and move on with your life without the disease of religous faith.

D
Sierra , 07.04.2005, 4:21pm link
Ditto. I have no problem with anyone being a person of faith. What I have a problem with is ignorance, religious centered bigotry and hate, the out-and-out lies that religious leaders use, and hypocrissy. As I said, I'm a bit more of an agnostic. If God wants me in any one of his or her little friendship meetings, then he or she can come over, sit down, and we'll talk. So far, hasn't happened.

By the way, Pascal...I hope you don't like your computer, your house, or your friends and family, because in order to follow Jesus, you have to give all of that up (Matthew chapter 19:21-29). And I hope you aren't a guy, because you'll have to cut your gonads off (Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7:1). Or if you're a girl, be prepared to keep quiet, because it is unseemly for a woman to speak in church, much less try to teach a man anything. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

You see, Pascal...some of us aren't Christians for one simple reason: we've read the Bible. We know what you jumped into head first, we know what contract you signed before reading the fine print. Thanks, but no thanks. And remember, don't pray for me...because every time a Christians prays for me, it backfires. Yes, you're alledged may answer your prayers, but more often than not, that alledged answer is a resounding "NO".
Dropinin , 07.04.2005, 7:26pm link
I'm not silly at all. I love reading your responses, because all you do is confirm that God exists. If was not true then Sierra would have shut up a long time. Most christians wouldn't waste their time on this site. It not hard to observe that there is more to a human being than meets the eye.
The universe is perfect and on target. Your petty judgements of the infinite one are just judgements.
There is joy in the world, there is woe in the world. We were made for both.

"In my world, nothing ever goes wrong." I am only the observer, observing what is going on.
Mr X , 07.04.2005, 7:53pm link
Sierra, you are exactly where you are supposed to be.
Circumstances do not make a man, they reveal him.
We are all on the same path, just different points along it.
You will get to higher places along the path, when you push your ego aside. God is waiting Sierra.
Mr X , 07.04.2005, 7:55pm link
Sorry be over-using your board, Tim, but a sudden thought occurred to while considering all of the reasons why so many people who are not religious seem to exude hostility towards the religious in general, and in the western world, Christians in particular.

And then it occurred to me. Now, forgive me, but I'm from the United States, so I only have statistics on those within the United States. The Non-religious are the third largest denomination in the United States, probably Canada as well. Catholics are first, Baptists are second (if you include all of the Baptist off-shoots together). The non-religious far outnumber any other denomination (Anglican, Evangelical, Lutheren, Methodist, Jewish, etc.)

Now, it occurred to me that not once have I seen a situation in the news where an atheist, agnostic, or deist has gone into a church and started preaching to the congregation about how they should give up their foolishness. Not once. In fact, I have never gone to an internet chat room designed exclusively for the religious and preached to them the error of their ways.

But every place I have gone where the non-religious, or even simply the free-thinking religious, have gathered, there is always some ninny on there, proselytizing the Christian faith to them. To make matters worse, when Wiccans or other minority faiths try to gather in person, there is always a Christian there, attempting to disrupt the talk or ceremony. For humanities sake, a family cannot even lay their homosexual child in the grave without some Christian trying to disrupt the proceedings. Its to the point where a non-Christian cannot even sit and do their job quietly without some well-meaning Christian trying to get them fired to show them God's wrath! Or how about the teacher and principal at the school who wants to make sure that all of the non-protestant and non-Christian childrens' souls are saved?

So one has to think logically...whose hostility is it truly? Where did it begin? And why was the hostility initiated?

And while we're on it, why don't you think about Coke and Pepsi for a little bit, and think about why, when you order a Coke at a restaurant, they give you a Pepsi, or vice versa...and then remember that they don't charge for water, which is better for you anyway.
Dropinin , 07.04.2005, 8:07pm link
Lets see...a variation on Christian Cliche's # 13, 14, 20, 21, 31, and 32. Includes the catagorie, "just you wait", which happens to be one of my favorite.
Dropinin , 07.04.2005, 8:16pm link
Poor poort Mr. X and his "path" ramblings.

Do you get it you nut....I am NOWHERE on the path. That path leads nowhere. There is no god and the church and the bible lead to a lot of pain, wasted time and loss of money. Because I and others here are fortunate enough to see the futility of your path we have struck out on our own. The riches and bounty of the world await us....unconstrained by silly thoughts of omnipresent gods.

You are right....the universe is perfect. It is perfect and natural and largely unspoiled by Christians. I wish I could fly out into and and explore.

No matter how far I went I would never find a trace of a god.

God does not exist. My saying that is not proof that he does.

D
Sierra , 07.04.2005, 8:29pm link
Okay, lets see if this works....

There is not a gorgeous naked person of the opposite sex on my bed.

Fooey.

Just trying out Mr. X's hypothesis. Didn't work. Guess Sierra is right.
Dropinin , 07.04.2005, 9:12pm link
So how does a seed when planted in the ground, know that it must sprout?
You are just on your path Sierra for this lifetime.
You will see it when you believe it.
Mr X , 07.04.2005, 9:16pm link
Sierra, you are so desperate for someone to save you and show you the way.
This is not my purpose, you must find it yourself.
You eventually will, the question is, how many lifetime's will it take you.
You are definitely ego dominated.
This is a round planet Sierra, and there is no chosing sides. We are all one, remember this a uni-verse, one song.
God's patience is infinite, and is waiting for you to get on the path.
Mr X , 07.04.2005, 9:19pm link
Hey x...

When you say.."So how does a seed when planted in the ground, know that it must sprout?"...what you mean is that there is no god.

A seed does not "know" to sprout....it is programmed by evolution to sprout. All of the seeds that did not sprout are no longer with us. This one can, does and....hey....another generation. This is called NATURAL SELECTION.

I know you are trying to say its because ALLAH hovers over it, but that aint so my friend.

Its like if I drop one of my nice screwdrivers in to a bucket of water. Its gonna rust. Not because it "knows" to, thats just how things work.

Now, if there was a "god" hovering over the bucket, my first question would be why the bastard didn't pull my screwdriver out of the water before it got all rusty. Did the screwdriver commit a sin that caused it to be unforgiveable and subject to eternal rust?

When I got there I would shove that screwdriver up "Mr. Diety's" ass!

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 07.04.2005, 9:38pm link
Now Mr. X thinks that seeds have brains and have to think about growing.

Sounds a bit Buddhist to me.

Are you sure you're a Christian? Because you sound just like all of the other trolls who happen to prefer anonymous message boards just to entertain yourself. Next thing you know, you'll start pretending you are two or more people, or change your name to try to throw us off guard.

Either that, or you just have a crush on Sierra. You do seem to be rather obsessive. Oh, well. What can one expect from a redneck wall reject?
Dropinin , 07.04.2005, 11:41pm link
The seed sprouts due to it's connection to an infinite intelligence. Evolution is false because we are spiritual beings having an human experience.
That which is never born, never dies.
You need to find the temple in your heart not your heart in an temple.
Sierra is an angry person, who is being punished by his/her anger. You are not punished for your anger, you are punished by your anger.
The spirit world is different from the material world, it's a different world in there, and you can't bring your measuring tools from the physical dimension and apply it in the spirit dimension.
You need to drop your hostility towards people of faith. We must all become one, because the goal of God is bring us together in love.
New age Mr. X , 08.04.2005, 12:44am link
I am eagerly awaiting the possible entropy death of the universe.
George , 08.04.2005, 1:14am link
I'm not angry. Actually, I'm one of the happierst people you will meet.

I life a life unencumbered by by thoughts of Mr. Diety-bastard.

I will drop my hostility when you god-phallus-whackers go back inside your churches and leave the enlightened alone.

Go eat your wafers, sip your wine and wait for all the dead to sit up in their coffins.

ON that point, why don't christians bury one another with shovels?

D
Sierra [Email], 08.04.2005, 6:47am link
What kind of "benevolent" God speaks of love and tolerance on one hand and teaches his followers to attack queers and ostracize anyone with a different religion?

What kind of fucked up religion placed women on the backburner for so long that only now we're starting to realize just how valuable they can be as equals? Don't believe me? For thousands of years, women were treated as 2nd class citizens, even more so when Christianity was introduced, because of one stupid tract in the Book thaty says "Woman, obey your husband".

Where exactly is this LOVE you priests and pastors preach about when you're doing your level best to deny homosexual rights, cursing them as if they were lower than beasts; the right of a woman to choose whether or not she can have an abortion; and shielding criminals by opposing the death penalty? May you pro-lifers never see the day that a gun barrel's pointing at your naked flesh. What kind of religionwould take away everyone's individuality by saying that the Church's way is the only way? Wow. How different is Christianity from the Nazis?

There's all sorts of hell breaking loose is this world but where is this so called Almighty Father when we need him? Believers will either retreat to the sayings

1. God has a plan for everything. We just don't understand his ways.

2. Only we can bring peace to this world with prayers.

Bullshit. The first answer reflects Christianity's laziness and the second represent's it's irrational belief in impossibilities.

I love a quote in a Futurama episode that represents exactly what Christians and Muslims and Jews really are like:

Ancient Egyptian leader: "Great Wall of Prophecy, reveal to us God's will so that we may blindly obey."

Ancient Egyptian priests: "Free us from thought and responsibility."

Ancient Egyptian leader: "We shall read things off you."

Ancient Egyptian priests: "Then do them."

Ancient Egyptian leader: "Your words guide us."

Ancient Egyptian priests: "We're dumb."

Make no mistake. I'm an atheist, but I don't want religion wiped off the Earth permanently because it's the one lie that gives its followers the illusion of strength. I just don't want these religious evangelists forcing their beliefs on those who know the truth. Isn't that right Mr. X?
bahmat [Email], 08.04.2005, 7:20am link
Tim;
Please lets get to a new Q you see 90 entries cool but only the same 3 or 4 humans are involved and frankly speaking, same stupid shit on both sides!!! and please explain to me how Theology is sientific (dropinin)? and sierra if there is NO GOD, why do you keep calling out names? All I know is that the same "Thist" for Knowledge, drives both sides of the conversation, and all the name calling is childish!!
willie , 08.04.2005, 2:45pm link
Thirst
willie , 08.04.2005, 2:50pm link
I am not thirsting for knowledge you sot.

THATS THE POINT.

I life the simplest answer is usually the truth. I this case there is no god.

Now that I don't have to waste all my time looking for him, getting to know him, letting him know me (even though ostensibly he created me), waiting for him to reveal himself to me, etc. on and on....

Now that I don't have to waste my time doing all of that I am free to enjoy life.

The only sabbath I celebrate now is MY birthday!!!!

Screw Mr. Diety-man and his bastard son (God was not married to Mary when he knocked Mary up which makes them both adulterers).

Live free, love life.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 08.04.2005, 4:04pm link
An TIM....the next thread you start ought to start off with something REALLY offensive to christians. Why waste time debating the finer points when we can get into a knock-down, drag-out insult match.

Surely if it happens that way it must be gods will!!!!!!

D
Sierra , 08.04.2005, 4:06pm link
people need religion to live.
they need something to stimulate thier petty little minds.
the more advanced of us question everything for stimulation.
by believing in god they are stimulating thier minds, believing that if they pray an all this jazz they are going to get what they want.
its just another form of giving meaning to life.
there is no meaning to life, except if you can accept thought it the meaning.
the concept of a meaning of life is the meaning of life itself.
the meaning of life can never be reached.
it is a never ending circle of stimulation for the brain.
without thought we are nothing.
we need to believe this boulshit to have meaning in this life.
also i would like to point out that "enlightenment" is also boulshit.
enlightenment is achieved by clearing your mind of thoughts.
if we do that, lifes meaning is put into an inbalance. the conflict of thought an instinct is altered and for that "enlightened" one- meaning is lost.
its all to stimulate our brains an keep us thinkng.
Social_Reject , 08.04.2005, 5:22pm link
Pardon if I sound rude, Willie, but I don't remember saying that theology was scientific. Doing a "find" check, I came across where I said that I studied it, and then I jumped all over Mr. X for not knowing the difference between a seed and a seedling, or that the plant inside could be measured. Is that where the confusion came along? I fully admit that theology is not a natural science...its a philosophical science. I was merely arguing somantics, because poor Mr. X is one of those fakers whose hobby is annoyance. Only problem is, he's not very good at it.

Now, my only objection of "Social Reject's " words is that religion is a mind stimulation. Oddly, its just the opposite. It simply provides easy answers to tough questions that no one truly knows, save perhaps the insane. Now, as part of my agnosticism, I am glad, actually thankful, that religion exists. When having frank discussions with some Christians, I have asked them, "What would you do if there was no God?" And they readily admit that they would probably become everything from a party monster to a mass murderer. EGADS!!! Please, yes! Let's keep religion around!! Something needs to hold these people back from wreaking havoc upon society!!

Unfortunately, religion is an opiate. If you watch new converts, with their up and down extremes in emotion, you can see it. It is addicting. And when you talk to an chemical addict, they have this mindset that everyone is, or at least should be, doing it as well. Thus, those who have religion are convinced that, because they require that stronger hand to hold them back, then obviously the rest of us need it.

And as for Sierra's anger, I think I already addressed the issue of "whose hostility was it first?" I'd be angry, too, if someone was COVETING me. Hmm...I smell a commandment. But either way, the Golden Rule also works in reverse...if you do unto someone, they're likely to do unto you back.
Dropinin , 08.04.2005, 9:02pm link
I'm not angry gang....it I laugh any harder at christians who waste their lives I will piss myself.

And SOCIAL - where do you get off saying "people need religion to live"?

Only SOME people need it to live. The rest of us manage to live IN SPITE of religion.

The only benefit it serves my mind is to help me learn to come up with wisecracks faster.

Life has no meaning. It just is. There is no purpose. You just are.

Why does it have to have meaning and purpose?

I am totally ok with that. I am having a blast. When I take the dirt nap I will be ok with that too.

I'm glad I got the chance to visit.

D
Sierra , 08.04.2005, 9:47pm link
My reputation is not in my hands, it's in the hands of others. I only can control my character.
Dropinin, I need not respond to any of your accusations. They are meaningless to me. You'll have to do better than that if you want to get to me.
Your insults belong to you, and not to me, and I refuse your gift. It's all yours, you can have it back.
Without me, this webboard would be boring. God is real, life has a purpose. You just need to go within to discover it. God's voice is silence, and it's beautiful, you just need to tune into it.
Try three weeks in hawaii, and you will see that voice. Just make sure you have 20K USD for the holiday. Doubt Sierra makes a six figured income like I do.

Aloha, my friends.
Mr X , 09.04.2005, 1:02am link
See, told you he wasn't a real Christian. He shows Jesus he hates him by doing the exact opposite of what Jesus commanded.
Dropinin , 09.04.2005, 1:23am link
20 K?
What travel agent suckered you out of 20 K for three weeks.
You're an idiot.
Marty , 09.04.2005, 1:54am link
My six figures are all LEFT of the decimal X.

Ha ha....no wonder you are christian. You are skimming off the collection plates!!!

D
Sierra [Email], 09.04.2005, 2:23am link
Dear all,
Sorry for not replying earlier, my wife caught up with some Church e-mails all day so she use our Internet connection. So, I have not given up on you yet.

Dear Tim,
Yes, Pascal is the first name my parents gave me. It just happens to be a very common name in French speaking countries, one of which I come from. I would not even dare touch upon Blaise Pascal's Wager, I am not smart enough. :-)

Dear Sierra,
I do agree with you that many horrific deeds were perpetrated in the Name Of. But this is not only true for Christianity. Islam has conquered by the edge of the sword too. Religious intolerance is frequent in both Buddhist and Hindu countries as well. This brings we back to my question regarding the name of this Web site. Not that I want you to change it but if you want to talk about religion, let us talk about all of them.

I am not sure what kind of Christians you have encountered in the US (sorry I am making an assumption here). I have had 'interesting' experiences myself when I travelled around your country. But does that mean that Christians are the same everywhere?
Thank God nowadays, Christians do not use the sword anymore. But what about other religions? Have you met any converts from other faiths who became Christians? I did and I know what they endure every day; some to the point that they flee their country to seek asylum in the Western world. We have one such family from Nepal in our church, and we get stories from our missionaries in China, which go along the same lines. Families in Pakistan are ostracised because of the faith.

Yes, the Bible says, 'Blessed are those who believe without seeing'. But tell me what is wrong with that? You do not know me, and neither do I know you. So maybe I should not talk to you about God but I feel I should. God will only give you a few chances to listen to Him; then He will 'shut your ears forever'.
I actually do have Muslim acquaintances (my wife actually comes from Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world), as well as Jewish friends (some of which are actually Messianic, i.e.: believers of Jesus), and my parents-in-law and brother-in-law are Buddhists. And I am not making this up!

Do you think Buddhists actually live a happy life? Do not fool yourself, they may look like they have inner peace and may persuade themselves they do. But have they? Who is their God? I do think themselves. That is maybe why Buddhism does attract so many followers in the Western world, so each can be his/her own god. My parents- and brother-in-law worship their ancestors. Do you think that is something that makes them happy? Shaking 2 sticks and throwing them on the floor until both face either up or down? Being afraid all the time and having to burn incense, 'Hell money', ... .

As for converts to Islam, what is their purpose? Getting 88 (not sure of the number) wives when to go to Heaven? I am writing from Australia (that is why I am a bit off with the rest of our chats) and we have had the case of a man, David Hicks, who converted to Islam and went to fight with the Taleban in Afghanistan. Is that right? Supporting a regime where women are considered worse than cattle?

As for being naïve, yes I may be. But as far as growing up is concerned, I can tell you I do grow up now, while before I was just a spoiled brat. But I am not there yet, just ask my wife. :-)
I saw that you are on a path of riches and bounty. How does that make you feel? Do you need more? How will you get it? Read on my reply to Dropitin ... .

Dear Dropitin,
I think what I mentioned to Sierra re. the type of Christians encountered may be applicable to you too. I guess many of you have had quite distressing experiences. I was also a bit puzzled when some of my Brothers and Sisters explained their experiences with Roman Catholicism here in Australia. While I do now attend a Protestant church, I do still consider myself a Roman Catholic and I did not experience anything bad when I was a child. Also not a lot of good, but maybe that was because I was just a kid.
You see, if you only gauge Christianity by the way Christians act, you will always find a reason not to become one. Of course many Christians do wrong, of course they lie, of course they cheat. They are human you know! But does that mean everyone does that.

I was a sinner and I still do sin but thanks to my faith in God, every day of my life since I accepted Him, I sin less and less. And I pray that one day I will sin no more. Maybe that will be the day I die bit so be it!

I can see that your knowledge of the Bible is good. You know where to find good examples to argue why you should not follow Jesus. I would just like to add a few things though. This is how I read the passage so take it with caution and be a Berean. You know who they are right?

In Matthew 19-21:29, Jesus does indeed urge his followers to sell all their possessions because without riches you are not attached to the world and its values. Yet in verse 26 He says that with the help of God you can still make it (without having to sell all?). You see what this means to me is that all addictions are eventually leading to evil, be it alcohol, drugs, porn, money, bulletin boards (joking!), ... . It may be good for a while but once you are addicted, it just brings you to your knees. And when you are on your knees, He is the answer!

As for Matthew 19:12, Jesus does not urge me to become a Eunuch (nor you by the way, assuming you are a man); He says that if you cannot control yourself and are having adulterous relationships (be they physical or just virtual, by the way), you may well make yourself a Eunuch, that will spare you the trouble in the future. In 1 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says that a husband should stick to his wife, and a wife to her husband. Which I think is acceptable even to modern standards.

I guess I must give you 1 Timothy 2:11-12. But I will get back to you on that. Are you a woman then, or is your wife/partner a feminist, or is she not the gorgeous naked person of the opposite sex you wanted to see on your bed? From the word gorgeous, you must be a man; women would say handsome. But then again!

As I mentioned before I have only become a Christian recently (actually 10 months ago) and I have had many doubts. Reading Lee Stroebel's books (A Case for Christ, for Faith, for Creation) helped me since I come from a scientific background. But I still have questions, I still have doubts. I did not jump head 1st and did read the fine print. But again, at the end of the day, what is there to loose, tell me? The Bible says 'He is no fool who looses what he cannot keep to keep what he cannot loose'.

As for prayers, you are right God does not always give us what we ask. But what do we ask Him? I know I used to only ask Him for things I (me, myself and I) needed. Now I slowly start asking for things other people need, and I am sorry to say that I will continue to pray for you. And you cannot stop that, only God can.
Another thing about prayer which I think Tim is asking about in his challenge. It is not just supplication as most people think (please, please, please, ...). It is Adoration for who He is, Confession for what we have done wrong (knowingly and unknowingly), Thanksgiving for what He has done for us, and finally Supplication. ACTS as the Alpha course summarises it. Do you have Alpha courses in the US?

I will continue to pray for wisdom for both Mr X and Football Man, that they may continue to challenge all of you who do not believe. Eventually some of you will accept Him, I know!
Best regards and God bless.
Pascal. [The French adjective for Easter, a coincidence? Maybe!]
Pascal , 09.04.2005, 2:46am link
Pascal,

Re: "I saw that you are on a path of riches and bounty. How does that make you feel? Do you need more? How will you get it?"

Yes, I'm piling it up. I don't need all of it...but a lot is good. I get it by working for it.

I makes me feel great.

You seem to imply that that is wrong?

Trust me...its not.

D
Sierra [Email], 09.04.2005, 3:54am link
Sierra,
the Princeville hotel in Maui is $500 USD per night. Sheraton Princess Kauliani (if I spelled it right) was $200 USD per night. Island Hopping is expensive, and so are the tours of the Islands. The drive to Hana is wonderful, you cross about 50 bridges. It's a beautiful trip Sierra.
Meals are expensive, $100 - 150 USD per day.

Six figured salary is correct.
I earn $105 K a year as a analyst for information technology audit and support.
Mr X , 09.04.2005, 7:44pm link
I saved for over 10 years to go on the hawaii holiday.
Sierra, please go, hawaii is paradise on earth.
Mr X , 09.04.2005, 7:45pm link
Ha...beat ya...I had $107K from sales.

A church got NONE of it.

D
Sierra [Email], 10.04.2005, 6:05am link
Why is there are so many in the mental health field who refuse to see religion (Christianity) as a mental disorder? (with few exceptions)
www.atheistfellowship.com
New10 [Email][Home], 10.04.2005, 6:23pm link
Wow, Mr. X...you really DID get ripped off! Hey, try the Rocky Mountain National Park sometime. Of course, you'de probably stay in Estes Park, but we (fam and friends) like going backwoods. Former Scouts, all of us.

Pascal,

Nope, sorry. I grew up around good Christians who weren't nutballs. I don't bother them, they don't bother me back. Only met one nutter as a child. It was much later after I realized I didn't believe it that I started seeing the majority of the nuts.

But I noticed something in your little prose. You speak of addictions, leading me to believe that you were one. I believe I also addressed earlier the addict personality. Many of Holy Rollers I have come across are former addicts of some kind or another. Just like the addict, they think everyone else is doing it. And once "saved" by Jesus, they think everyone else needs to be saved. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have an addictive personality. To be honest, I'm probably a far more moral person today than when I was a good little church goer. (Shrugs shoulders). That's why I believe strictly in religious freedom, and why I don't think the alledged God would (or should) have a problem with a multitude of faiths and philosophies. Some people, if Christians, might be morally bankrupt, but might later find the morality within themselves under a different philosopy. Being a devout Lutheren in good standing, and a high position within, the church didn't stop the BTK strangler from killing all of those people. Maybe being a pagan or an atheist might have. Then again, he could just be a person that belong outside of an institution.

Well, toodles for now, blokes. Don't know when I'll be back, as I'm remodeling my loo.
Dropinin , 10.04.2005, 10:11pm link
Ha ha ha ha Mr X

You are an analyst????? Sweet jesus, I hope you don't apply the same analytical skills at work as you do in your arguments here. I would be saving all that crazy dough they are paying you - when they find out about your analysis you will be gone, gone gone.
Yahoo , 11.04.2005, 1:01am link
Religion and faith are the same kind of addiction as heroin or other drugs.

It stimulates the same part of the brain and delivers the same "feel good" warm fuzzy.

There is no difference between a drug addict and a jesus junkie.

D
Sierra [Email], 11.04.2005, 2:51am link
Dear all,
Good morning from Australia.

Dear Sierra,
Well if you think you are obtaining your riches through legal ways, without hurting anyone on the way, and you are actually doing that, I guess it is fine. Now please bear in mind that only God can judge whether what you are doing is OK. As a Christian you would be filled with the Holy Spirit and He would guide your hand. I was simply taken aback by your comment about Islam and its resources, and that is why I assumed your ways we not right.
Now you say you are piling it up, may I ask what for? For Uncle Sam when you push up daisies? There is so much need in this world. Many are called but few respond. If you have resources (money, talents, …) you should make them available. You will feel so much better.
I almost missed you comment that religion is addictive. I must admit it is but there is a major difference with drugs, alcohol, porn. And that is that after having taken it in you feel good. You were mentioning you look at porn. Do you feel good after looking at it? Maybe just after the moment of ‘enlightenment’ but after that? If you do not mind me asking a more personal question, do you have a partner? How does she (assumption since mainly men look at porn) feel? Does she know?

Dear Dropitin,
Sorry if I missed your earlier point about addictions. I just joined the blog and had some difficult trying to understand all that is written. Often the interesting posts are interrupted by one-liners or ‘one-worders’ which do sometimes not relate to the earlier post. But for Freedom of Speech’s sake, let us have them.
I have admitted I was addicted did I not? And I am still drawn to the addiction but, thank God, He keeps me away from it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 ‘No temptation has seized you expect what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will provide you with a way out so you can stand up under it’.
If you have met a lot of addicts who became Christians, have you ever asked them why they accepted Him and what He brought them that they lacked before. I am not sure why you think that addicts think everyone else is one? But if they think that everyone else must be saved (addicts and others), does that not say something to you about what happened in their lives?
Remember that you do not need to have an addictive personality to accept Him in your life.
‘All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God’ (Romans 3:23), that is I, Mr X, Football Man, you, Sierra, Tim, and all the other visitors of this blog. And the penalty of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life is Christ Jesus (Romans 6:23).
Accept Him and your life will be changed and, if there is Heaven, well, you will have more years to enjoy than the mere 80 we can expect on this earth. You will have no worries, no enemies (not even annoying Christians like me since you would be one too).
And, I do not mean to be harsh, but your language is not what I would call non-addictive at times. I am thankful for you being composed in your replies to me, but I pity Mr X when he reads your responses to him.
I am not sure who the BTK strangler is. But I will attempt a more general reply to some of the comments made (not necessarily by you) earlier about the wickedness of some ‘Christians’. I know that many a non-believer uses the argument that some Christians do evil and that therefore they should not become one.
But have you thought about how that relates to the works of Christ. If you omit the miracles, the resurrection, and all the things that only faith can accept, was Jesus Christ not the most loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, gentle, faithful, kind, and in-control (‘Fruits of the Spirit – Galatians 5:22-23) person the history has ever met?
How then can a strangler, a torturer, a homosexual hater, an abortion doctor killer, … claim he/she is a Christian? What do you think? My answer is simple: they think they are Christians, use the Bible to justify their own means and perpetrate the acts that they think have been justified.
I tell you, they will pay for this forever when they face Him at their judgement unless they repent and earnestly ask for forgiveness. When Jesus was crucified, one of the robbers was mocking Him but the other asked for forgiveness and he was saved.
And do not think that it is sufficient to say or think ‘God forgive me’, you have to believe it in your hart otherwise, He will not accept your repentance. And you might go on with your life thinking you are saved but not having been changed … until the day of judgement when you will realise. Unfortunately it is then slightly too late.
Well all the best with your loo but do come back.
Best regards and God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 11.04.2005, 3:22am link
Dear all,
Sorry I forgot to mention something that occurred to me yesterday (Sun.) in Church. Yes you can get insights in Church!

Dear Dropitin,
You mentioned about a Christian firing someone. My previous boss is a Christian and he got me ‘fired’ (actually 'not retained' which for me, at the end of the day, meant the same). He said he had good reasons and later explained them to me. It was for the sake of the department. The department has now been virtually dissolved, a few moving on, a few quitting. So was his action worth it? For him it was, for me it was not. But I have forgiven him and I pray that if his action was not worth it God too may forgive him.
We do make mistakes. And as I said earlier, we are still human. This is not an excuse obviously and it should not be because He knows.

You also said that rapture may have happened already. So what if it has? Does it mean we can live lawless lives? Remember that the Bible and especially the 10 commandments are the basis of many laws in the modern world.

Bye for now. God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 11.04.2005, 3:46am link
Pascal,

You must be nuts.

1. I never said I looked at porn. I don't know where you got that? I'm not opposed to it, but my wife is much more fun than paper or film.

2. "Now please bear in mind that only God can judge whether what you are doing is OK." You must truly be insane. There is no god. So this is not a big issue for me.

3. "As a Christian you would be filled with the Holy Spirit and He would guide your hand." Really? Would this be the same way he guides the hands of child-molesting priests, religous fundamentalists who murder in the name of anti-abortion or any of the multitude of sins perpatrated in the name of the unholy Diety-man? I will guide my own hand. God does not exist and I would have no part of the bastard if he did.

3. "I was simply taken aback by your comment about Islam and its resources, and that is why I assumed your ways we not right." I don't know why you would be shocked. Christianity has been forcing its views on others and taking their resources for 2000 years. Perhaps you have forgotten all the fun had during the spanish inquisition, the protestant reformation of the religous conflicts in northern Ireland. Of course, I guess those wern't "true" christians like you.

4. "Now you say you are piling it up, may I ask what for?"

For a variety of socioeconomic factors to difficult to go into here, I believe that the only way for people (families) to maintain or advance their wealth these days is by adopting a multi-generational approach to asset management. This means that I am attempting to acquire as much realestate as possible. This serves a "rental income" purpose when I retire, provides my children with homes in case economic circumstances make it difficult for them to acquire them in the future, and gives me a place to store money that is free from worries over the stock market. People act like the "great depression" or worldwide economic collapse could not happen. Its probably going to. I an mine we all have homes and safe assets with which to ride it out.

5. "There is so much need in this world. Many are called but few respond."

The reality is that there is so much need because there are too many people. Isn't it amazing that animals, who have no money or religion seem to get along just fine, but so many people just stand in a food line looking for a handout.

The reality is that "many are born but fewer should be". If there were fewer of "gods children" then everyone will be better off.

6. "If you have resources (money, talents,…) you should make them available. You will feel so much better." Why in the world would I want to give to those who will not help themselves. There are only two possibilities:

1. They won't help themselves. Well, then they should die as nature would cull any other animal similarly disposed.

2. They can't help themselves. Well, then they probably should not have been born. If we are lucky we can keep them from reproducing which will only make the problem worse.

Why dosen't your loving god do anything to help fix any of these problems?

It't because he does not exist.

You are on your own.

D
Sierra [Email], 11.04.2005, 6:26am link
Dear Sierra,
Well, I would like to apologise then for having assumed that what you were alluding to in your post on 30/03 at 5:08pm (http://www.religionisbullshit.net/2005/03/so-whats-with-this-resurrection.php?show_id=111186511900059222#a353a3038706d) was personal.
I am happy to see you open up. We now are finally assured that you are a married man and have children.

I am afraid that your argument in points 3.a. and 3.b. is really weak. Certainly given what I mentioned in my previous post. It is too easy Sierra to say that God does not exist because of what humans do?
And yes I was not there when the ‘fun’ happened, thank God for that. And I am not there either now when the US has ‘fun’ in Iraq. Thank God for that too.

So you seem to be in favour of natural selection. Well that is really nice! I pray that all your assets continue to improve in value so that you would never have to queue for unemployment benefits or any sort of help. Because there may be someone at counter telling you to go and get it yourself from someone else. Have you ever been unemployed? Have you ever stood in the queue for unemployment benefits? I have and I can tell you that it really brings you down. But I am thankful that I received a bit of money.
I am without work now too. Since I got retrenched, in September 2003, I have worked 3.5 months. And, I cannot receive any benefits since I was self-employed. But the difference now is that I have God on my side, and He helps me through.

So, you say that people that do not want to help themselves should die. It is true that it is written that if you do not work you will not eat, but is a little compassion not something good? Of course you can only do so much. You can offer your help but the eventual decision is not yours. Just like what I am trying to do here, offering a bit of help and hoping something will happen.

And you also say that people that cannot help themselves should not have been born. Unfortunately most people are not responsible for their own birth. In fact I only see one exception; His name starts with J.
And then we should keep them from reproducing, hey? Sounds like some Nazi propaganda to me! Are you really serious? I am not sure which world you are living in but it does not look like mine.

Well our loving God (yours too) does do something by sending missionaries and people with skills to help in needy areas. Our Church is quite renowned for its missionary work and we have about 40 people around Asia doing that. Last year we also had a group who went to Zambia, Africa to help set up a cultural group. They taught the Zambians singing and dancing and helped them tour the country. So they not only gave them self-esteem (which many lacked) but also a hobby/job so they could help themselves.
If you give a man a fish, he will eat one day. If you teach him how to fish, he will eat for the rest of his life.

One last thing for today; you are always saying that God does not exist.
Well, if you are reading my prose attentively, do you not see something strange? Yeah I know I am a nut but besides that? Did it occur to you that most of your points I have been able to add to? That I have had experiences relating to them? Do you not find that strange?
I do not! And like my brother Mr X, I am persuaded that we are here on this bulletin board, for one purpose only.

Best regards and God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 12.04.2005, 3:25am link
Hey Pascal

Since you know about music I wondered if you can help me? Do you know the lyrics to the song called, "Sanctimonious"?
Yahoo , 12.04.2005, 5:27am link
Pascal,

You poor guy.

1. First, if you have only worked 3.5 months in the last 20 and you are stitting aroung posting in here you are nuts. You need to get a part time job, or two or three and improve you life. Of course now you have found god so I guess you don't have to work.

2. As far as the "Nazi" comment....lets be real for a moment. There is a finite number of people this planet can support. Plus, no species should so totally dominate the environment the way humans do. The reality is that we need a serious population reduction, but the bible and especially the catholics tell you to have all the children you can.

Such a strategy is naturally unsound. It is not possible that it can be sustained.

I actually had a friend once who claimed to be an ordained minister. Of what I have no idea. I asked him the following question. "I there were people standing front to back, shoulder to shoulder on every exposed piece of gound on this planet (including the poles) could we continue to have more people?"

Without flinching he said absolutly yes. God would provide.

That statement pretty much sums it up for religion.

3. "Did it occur to you that most of your points I have been able to add to? That I have had experiences relating to them? Do you not find that strange?"

Not at all. Your belief in Mr. Diety-man must and always does yeild to natural law. If you fail to eat, you starve. Disease and natural disaster can kill you.

For that reason we have common experience sets.

Now, why don't you stop posting and go get a job.

D
Sierra [Email], 12.04.2005, 5:49am link
You have to love how god spends his time.

43 species of parrots and nipples for men.

Whatever.

D
Sierra [Email], 12.04.2005, 5:53am link
Lastly Pascal,

You said "Well our loving God (yours too)...."

That right there is why christians are so hated.

Its not enough that you believe in the silly bastard....you have to force your views on others. You assume that its all a fact which I can be made to understand and worship if properly engaged.

That is the same mentality that started almost every christian atrocity throughout time.

Its scary to know that its still alive and well.

Fortunately, I am immune.

There is no god. Not mine, and especially not yours.

D
Sierra , 12.04.2005, 3:52pm link
By the why: "yours too" is an insult to me. You just state that I'm to stupid to understand anything, you know better. And I see this every day, in all places, as a formidable pressure to "believe". But I believe, just not in what you believe. Seems like few can understand this.
And I wonder why the crucify method was invented for christians...
ro , 12.04.2005, 5:15pm link
Crucifixions were the world's first bilboards.

They were like signs saying "This is where religion leads to".

Atheists got along FINE in the roman world.

D
Sierra , 12.04.2005, 5:41pm link
Dear all,
Good morning from Australia.

Dear Sierra,
You are really mellowing down real fast. You are now already pitying me! Next time around you will love me! Good heterosexual brotherly love that is, no touching, no kissing, OK!
Well your assumption that I have nothing to do is unfortunately erroneous. While I am not a busy as I would prefer to be, I have some things to do. One is to work as ‘Web servant’ for our Church Web site, the other is to attend to my wife’s business. Since the shop is very quiet, I can spend a bit of time posting my thoughts on this blog. We are also selling on the Internet so I have to look at it from time to time.
And I not think that I am in here all the time and at strange hours of our Australian day (it just now just past 12:00 noon).
And I thought I wrote that the Bible does not condone laziness.

As for overpopulation, I must agree that some regions of the world are overcrowded. But in terms of lack of resources, maybe Western countries should not be so greedy to force developing countries in producing for us, at ridiculously low prices, things we do not really need. If developing countries had the choice, they could produce their own food but unfortunately they do not have that choice because countries such as the US force them into producing cheap coffee, cheap tropical fruits, … .
And if there is one country that does not care about our planet, well I can tell you it is the US. No wonder you did not ratify the Tokyo protocol, no wonder the arms lobby is strong, no wonder the pharmaceutical lobby can let people die of aids for their profit, no wonder the petroleum lobby is against electrical cars. So who is damaging the planet, the overpopulated countries or the liberal, democratic, educated, developed countries?
As for the Bible telling Christians (not just Catholics) to have a lot of children, well yes it says they are a blessing. And I would hope yours are one too for you.

I am not sure why you think I force God onto you. I am just saying that He is not only the God of Christians because if He were then there would not be any more people coming to Him. It is exactly because He is not exclusive that He can draw more to believe in Him.
And how about you? Are you not forcing onto me the thought that there is no God. In all your posts you write it … . Of course this is a blog for non-believers. But if Mr X, Football Man and myself would not be here to entertain you, who would you be writing to? Yourself? Whose thoughts would you be sharing? Your own? Frankly apart of you and Dropitin, there is not much happening around here. Even Tim is quiet.

Dear Ro,
I do not think I said you are stupid and if you feel I did it then I am apologising. In any case, since I do not know you I am unable to judge. And even if I did not know, I am not allowed to judge. I am only allowed to tell you about what I feel. And you are doing the same with me.
I do think that there is much more pressure not to believe than there is pressure to believe.
Please tell me how many ads you will see on TV that do NOT show naked body parts, do NOT use women to entice purchasing something, do NOT show beautiful people, do NOT have violence in them. If you can let me know of one, good on you! (Australian expression).
Please also tell me how many movies are suited for general viewing, how many video games are the same, and how many CDs are like that too.
Our society pushes us away from a Biblical living by inundating us with material that leads us into sin.
Of course we must have freedom of speech and we have the choice to watch or not.

As for crucifixion having been invented for Christians I am afraid you are misinformed. Romans used it before and after the death of Christ. Actually not for long (about 50 more years) since they found it so cruel.
Christians have adopted the symbol because it shows the suffering that He had to go through for us but also the hope He is giving us through His resurrection.

Dear Yahoo,
I had a read of Sanctimonious (by Halo I presume) and I sounds a bit like David’s Psalms at least in the beginning. Then it goes on about taking once life. Nice! As if youth need more encouragement to commit suicide. So what is it that you are saying? That Sanctimonious is God? According to the definition in dictionary.reference.com, it refers to an excessively or hypocritically pious person. So that is not who God is. So are you saying that I am Sanctimonious? Well maybe that is what you think and so be it then.

OK enough for today. Must do some work otherwise Sierra will complain.
Best regards and God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 13.04.2005, 4:29am link
what is really gay now is the churches make you pay to go and get saved by god. you dont have to pay anyone to believe in something. also i cant believe that people acually believe in religious brainwashed bullshit. there is no evidence that anything in the bible acually excisted, but there has been evidence of evolution. i mean how can adam and eve be the first people on earth? did they just appear on earth and started haveing sex and then colonies formed and so on and so on. also there are thousands of religions and all of them think they are right so then hate formes between these different religions, then wars start, people die, countries gain power, then these countries such as the US become just like a big bullY. they push other nations around with there money and nuclear weapons. and guess what the power is basiacally in one man hand, the president. who is greedy and just wants power. WE LIVE IN A FUCKED UP WORLD, WHEN WILL WE ALL REALIZE THAT WE ARE EQUAL, THEN WE CAN ALL LIVE IN PEACE AND HAVE FREEDOM, TILL THEN IT IS ONLY A DREAM.
Garet , 13.04.2005, 5:02am link
Thanks for gods blessing, Pascal and may Satans blessing be upon you too
Yahoo , 13.04.2005, 5:29am link
Pascal, you are probably right about youth not needing any encouragement to suicide (and yes I meant you are sanctimonious). I don't think that being told "we're praying for you" or "god will provide" is a big deterrent from suicidal tendencies, especially when coming from vapid, 2-dimensional chickens who have to abrogate responsibility for life and living to some mythical being. Even if God does exist he is not responsible for the way we live our lives. WE are! Every born-again arsehole I have ever met drops to their knees in a crisis and then stabs you in the back if you are in anyway threatening or have a backbone when it comes to how life pans out (ie not a jesus jumper).

I can smell you from here - mothballs, fake piety, that vacuous expression and supercilious manner towards others. Then you hide behind "God" and "jesus". If they do exist, you are all going to hell (if it exists)
Yahoo , 13.04.2005, 5:35am link
Pascal,

Your comment "Well our loving God (yours too)...." pretty much says it all. Right there you are trying to force your beliefs on to me.

Nice try, but it only reaffirms what the enlightened in here have said all along.

I am not forcing the no god concept on you. I simply state it as a fact. You may waste your life ignoring that fact if you choose.

Your entire view of the universe is that all of the silly bible crap exists, you assume it affects EVERYONE's lives and treat others as if it is there and just not acknowledged.

That is why people hate christians and religion in the larger context.

You simply can not say to yourself that "I chose to believe" and let it go at that.

Well my friend...your god-filled world run by Mr. Dierty-farce stops at the end of your nose. When you proceed as if it does not you insult everyone else and make yourself hated.

If you want to believe all that crap this is fine, but you need to accept that it is YOUR CHOICE and YOUR BELIEF and not a fact everyone around you must accept.

I think it laughable that another christian got you fired from your job. You can rationalize it any way you want, but when push came to shove another of your flock stabbed you in the back. I guess it was gods will. I'm still laughing at that one.

How you can look up at the night sky and see a "god" looking back at you is beyond me, but do so to your pleasure.

Just keep it to yourself.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 13.04.2005, 5:51pm link
Dear all,
Good morning from Australia.

Dear Garet,
When you say churches make people pay to go, do you mean entrance fees? I doubt it but if so, let me know. Churches ask for donations and they are discretionary.

As for your claim that nothing in the Bible existed, please have a look at the works of Jewish historian Josephus (Flavius Joseph) who was a Jew (not a Christian) and, after having defected to the Romans, became an historian of the Roman Empire. So he was not biased towards Christianity but he still mentioned Jesus in his work ‘Antiquities’. Also please try to question historians about the veracity of the Bible. Do not just come on this blog and make claims like that. Or try to look at those in favour and against and judge for yourself.

There has been a lot of evidence about evolution, 100 or 150 years ago. And many ‘scientists’ satisfy themselves with Darwinism because it does not involve a creator. They are therefore fine and can even encompass becoming a creator themselves. Are you aware that a lot of ‘scientific works’ have actually been tempered with to show evolution? Please have a read about the Cambrian Explosion (the Uni of Berkeley is number 1 in Google for that search) and tell me what this means to you.
How can a modern-day scientist still believe in evolution? I do not know! Or maybe only if they are not really scientists and only consider evidence that points them towards what they want to believe.
Albert Einstein said that religion and science are not irreconcilable.

And you are right we live in a f…ed up world and it all our fault because we are sinners.
And we are all equal and we can live in peace if we believe the Good News of the Bible.

Dear Yahoo,
You are totally right! If indeed I am a sanctimonious, if indeed I bless with my mouth and curse with my heart, I will go the Hell. Given I believe in God, I must believe in Satan. Given I believe in Heaven, I must believe in Hell.

Now tell me, if you do not believe in God, how then can you believe that your blessings from Satan are actually going to influence me? You cannot have one without the other, right!
It is like:
The alpha and the omega
The 0 and the 1
The yin and the yang
The matter and anti-matter
The electron and the positron
The beginning and the end.

Dear Tim,
If you would allow me, I would like to suggest 2 posts:
‘Since God does not exist, Satan does not exist either’
‘Since God does not exist, Allah does not exist, Yahweh/Jehovah does not exist, Buddha (not a God but hey let us widen the argument) does not exist, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva do not exist’.
I am sure you will get a lot of feedback.

Dear Sierra,
I do actually think that it was God’s plan to have me fired. And actually, when I was fired, I was not a Christian so my boss, was not one of ‘my flock’, and I did not hate him for being a Christian. I had resentment at 1st and then when I became a Christian I forgave him and asked God to forgive him as well.
Well since you, Yahoo, and Dropitin are so insistent, I will keep quiet. I wonder what you will discuss about next. Well I gave Tim some ideas.

Best regards and God bless,
Pascal.
Pascal , 14.04.2005, 3:53am link
Pascal:
"Since God does not exist, Satan does not exist either"
"Since God does not exist, Allah does not exist, Yahweh/Jehovah does not exist, Buddha (not a God but hey let us widen the argument) does not exist, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva do not exist".
That's right.
Tim [Home], 14.04.2005, 10:51am link
I dont have enough interest in this to read all the comments posted.
But here are my thoughts for what theyre worth:
First in response to the rabid athiests while there is no evidence proving the existence of God there is also no evidence to the contrary. Therefore to catagorically deny the non existence of a supreme being is just as ludicrous as claiming that ther is one.In fact more so because one can claim to have personal experience of the devine and so justify ones faith in it, but you can not justify the non existence of God just because u have not seen proof.

Next christians. Even if you choose to believe that you have experinced some sort of spiritual awareness of a higher power that does not prove in any scientific way the validity of the christ myth.
It might be enough proof for you but toexpect it to be enough for the rest of us is down right insulting.
As for Mr X 's talk of scholarly christian works what a joke. The accepted scholarly truth is that until the time of Constitine there was no such book as the Bible, only a extremely large and diverse body of work containing varying takes on the theme of the christ myth.
The bible you would be reading now is nothing but the selected versiond as chosen by the church fathers of the time as suited the views of the most powerfull of the many christian sects of the time.
mixed in for good measure and to tkae care of the prerequisite cration myths required by proper religions is some Jewish Myth.
In fact entering into an an argument with any intellectual minnow dumb enough to wave the bible as a historic record is such a waste of time im sorry even for taking the time to post this comment.
Hell Lad , 14.04.2005, 3:27pm link
Hell Lad,

Not bad, but you miss an important point.

When you say "there is no evidence proving the existence of God there is also no evidence to the contrary" you fall into the christian "gee, I sure wish it were true" trap.

If I announce that there is not a giant bunny in the room with me here, the fact that I can't prove he isn't here in no way makes the fact uncertain. Someone will always come along with a way he could be (he's behind you, he's invisible, he blends in.....).

You have to prove that he does exist.

And Pascal..."I do actually think that it was God’s plan to have me fired"...what a nice god. In order to get you to worship him he felt it necessary to take away your livelyhood. What a bastard. Could he not have found an easier way?


D
Sierra , 14.04.2005, 4:38pm link
Sierra

Until we find a theory that reasonably discribes the mechanism of creation there is a possibility that we might find that it was god all along.

Unfortunately your argument could be extended to state that because we could not prove that the world was round it was flat until copernicus proved otherwise.

You're falling into the religeous trap of believing that any kind of intelligence or creative force that might be out there will resemble or mirror ours even if on a grander scale i.e. a bearded old man. To me God represents the great void in human understanding which might well turn ou to be an unimaginably big intelligence of which we're all apart.
Having made that statement it necesarily becomes potentially becomes a religeous statement ill admit. It only needs someone to agree with it to become thus. Or perhaps even someone who disagrees with it enough to comment. So do us all a favour and forget i said it lol .
Hell Lad , 14.04.2005, 5:57pm link
Hell,

1. "Until we find a theory that reasonably discribes the mechanism of creation there is a possibility that we might find that it was god all along."

Ok. Then lets suspend all religous activity until "god" is conclusively proved. I'll stop lighting off firecrackers on "big bang celebration day" and until one is conclusively proved we will proceed with no "where we came from" discussions what so ever. That sounds good. No more "sin" and I can take anyone's name in vain without fear of retribution.

2. "Unfortunately your argument could be extended to state that because we could not prove that the world was round it was flat until copernicus proved otherwise."

This argument fails. Regardless of whether or not (or how strongly) people believed the world was flat, it was round. Lots of people made up a lot of stories and swore that they knew of people who fell off the edge. Did not make it true. Its the same with religion. Most recently we have lying bastards who profess that the virgin mary appeared to them. All of this crap does not make the story of the bible true.

3. "You're falling into the religeous trap of believing that any kind of intelligence or creative force that might be out there will resemble or mirror ours even if on a grander scale i.e. a bearded old man."

No I'm not. I'm telling you emphatically that there is no "greater mind" ot there and in fact simple natural processes created everything.

4. "To me God represents the great void in human understanding which might well turn ou to be an unimaginably big intelligence of which we're all apart."

Well, thats your priveledge. I have never been inside the home of one of my neighbors. I have a "void" of understanding as to how their furniture is arranged. Just because this "void" exists is not proof that their house is vastly different than mine - stacked floor to cieling with gold bars and jewels. The reality is that the "unknown" across the street is filled very much like my house. Just because my imagination runs wild about what "might" be in there does in no way suggest that I should proceed as if it does.

5. "Having made that statement it necesarily becomes potentially becomes a religeous statement ill admit. It only needs someone to agree with it to become thus. Or perhaps even someone who disagrees with it enough to comment. So do us all a favour and forget i said it lol."

All I can discern here it the age old truth that all it takes to begin a "religion" is two idiots who believe roughly the same thing. The points on which they disagree become either denominations or separate faiths and before long one is going to try to kill the other because he is a heathen.

There is no god. Free yourself.

D
Sierra , 14.04.2005, 6:41pm link
THIS JUST IN FROM THE "UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS THAT GUIDES US ALL"

--------

NEW DELHI, India (Reuters) -- Indian police have charged 80 people for burying children alive in an ancient Hindu ceremony known as "the festival of pits."

The ceremony, in which children -- some less than a year old -- are buried alive briefly and then dug up, happened on Monday in southern Tamil Nadu state, The Asian Age reported on Thursday.

Authorities have been trying for years to stop it and people found guilty face up to three years in jail and/or a fine of 5000 rupees ($114).

Every two years, parents who have vowed to bury their first-born if they are blessed with a child, take part in the Kuzhimattru Thiru Vizha ceremony.

The children are drugged to make them unconscious and placed in shallow "graves" in temple courtyards.

The pits are covered with leaves and dirt and the children are pulled out after Hindu priests chant a brief prayer -- lasting up to a minute.
-----------

I'm sure the police who are trying to stop this are just a bunch of athiest bastards who refuse to connect with Mr. Diety-man. And don't give be any bullshit about this not being a christian ceremony. I would have nothing to do with a "god" of any sort who would allow this.

There is no god. Don't bury your children.

D
Sierra , 14.04.2005, 8:28pm link
you big dummy
hjkmdfjhht [Email], 15.04.2005, 9:31pm link
Very helpful. You must be a christian. Are you sure you wouldn't rather threaten me with death or eternal damnation?

There is no god. Live free.

D
Sierra , 15.04.2005, 9:55pm link
I have no problem with peoples who think and choose to believe. But those 99% who stooped to think (or never started) and believe like a herd make me sick. And then they claim that religion is only what you feel, you don't need to think or even worst, you are not allowed. They provide some learned answers and feel good, like after a whisky bottle. Oh, they end telling me I'm stupid.
I'm sorry for the rest 1%.
ro , 15.04.2005, 10:28pm link
They are all stupid. No one who thinks would seriously believe. I decorate my house for Christmans, but I don't seriously believe that fat bastard is going to wedge his ass down my chimney. I would be chosing disappointment if I did that.

I can not "choose" to believe in something I know does not exist. I can choose to partake in pagentry and decoration, but I don't believe.

Anyone who says they do does not think.

There is no god.

D
Sierra , 15.04.2005, 10:50pm link
You will never convince a Christian that there is no God, because they are afraid that after death, there is nothing, absolutely nothing. If they believed that, they wouldn't need some diety to make them feel secure about death. That's the crux of it all. I as an atheist am very comfortable with knowing there is nothing, this life is the only one we have. If the world believed that, then maybe the killing fields would stop. Who would kill and then believe that they will still go to heaven? (re: the Muslims for instance). Why do people still need a 'god' to believe in, when they know now the science of the universe? I don't get it. Why are Christians always so keen to convert the atheist? We don't give a shit about them, they can believe what they like. So, why are they so keen to convert us? Is it that they really do need to convince themselves of a God?
Sunami [Email], 16.04.2005, 12:11am link
Comments by MrX that the universe is perfect.. That's a load of bullshit already. If it was so perfect, then why do we have tornados that kill people, Tsunami's etc... The universe is far from perfect. when a plane crashes and there is one survivor they call this a miracle. What about the other 80 people on the plane, why did they die? You can go on and on. Why can't an atheist have all the moral values that the Christian has? I believe in being a good person, honest, trustworthy and helping the poor etc.. giving to charity.. why do these virtues and morals have to come from being Christian. I would have thought, they are just plain human!
Sunami [Email], 16.04.2005, 12:17am link
Christianity is about not accepting the consequences of your actions. The reality is that most people can not accept a. Random chance and b. free will.

People simply can not accept that their baby had a birth defect. Instead its a "gift from god". Something special he "trusted them with".

People can't accept that they can work hard all their lives and not succeed. Its not their fault. Its god's will - he's trying to direct them into the church and charity work.

People can't accept that they can make a lifetime of bad decisions (free will), end up with a bad result and "thats it."

After all, there must be a REASON for a life of poverty.

Yeah, there's a reason all right. To god dammed many people. Too few resources.

Most people need to believe that their suffering has a purpose. It helps make it bearable.

The reality is that suffering is just perspecitve. Your suffering is my success. I got the (job, car, lover, money etc.) that you didn't.

There is no "god" operating and it does not prepare you for anything.

Survival of the fittest my friends.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 16.04.2005, 2:11am link
Pascal, peace brother. Yes I am an analyst. I program in PERL, AWK, UNIX SHELL SCRIPTS, C++, MATLAB and VISUAL basic. Why do you find it so amusing that I'm analyst? If you earn more money, God bless you. We are not put into this world to be judged better than anyone else or to be in contest with anyone else, we are the now-here to help one another and to love one another. I don't think I got ripped off in Hawaii. No agent assisted me, I did the work myself. Yes, it's expensive and I won't be taking a holiday for a few years, but it was worth it. Beautiful place to meditate, and get in touch with the invisible force which permeates this universe.
Sierra, I'm not offended by your name calling. The reason you attract so much hostility, is because that's all you have to give away. Try this: When you deal with people, and you have a choice to to be right or kind, just pick kind.
Sierra and co., you will be on the path that I'm on. You believe in God, and desperately want to connect. Go to that special place inside of you, and you will find God. God's beautiful voice is silence.
Mr X , 17.04.2005, 9:20pm link
There are two ways to deal with any situation, the violent way, and the peaceful way. This is the ying and the yang of the universe. Choose the peaceful way.
The universe is perfect. Not perfect by your definition of perfect , perfect in the sense that it operates flawlessly by design and construction. You can not use humanistic judgements on the universe, it doesn't abide by them.
Mr X , 17.04.2005, 9:35pm link
Sierra, Pascal, Sunami, you are dominated by your egos (edging God out). I can see through the ego chatter. Turn to your higher self, the part of you that is connected to God and always will be.
Your higher self can see through the false logic of the ego. Let your higher self rule.
You want a peaceful world? You need to fill it with people who are filled with inner peace.
Then you will have a peaceful world.
If you want to compete for the limited resources, declare yourself special and better than others, then fight and kill yourselves doing it. Learn to share, and love. That can only come by connecting and obeying God.

I have love for all of you.

Peace.
Mr X , 17.04.2005, 9:39pm link
You are one sad sad person. You poor thing.


There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 17.04.2005, 10:01pm link
I'm not sad Sierra. May you find the peace that you've been looking for.
"How can I serve", should be your daily mantra. Ask God, how can I serve.
Mr X , 17.04.2005, 10:27pm link
MrX. How dare you tell me to "learn and love"... how dare you assume that I don't know how to learn and love.. how dare you. You are on your high and mighty horse. How you do go on and on.. Put your head back in the sand and keep it there, beause that's where you are right now and alway will be with that attitude.
Sunami , 17.04.2005, 11:04pm link
Stop preaching as if you know it all. You assume way too much without one bit of sceptiscm, healthy sceptisim, curiosity, questioning what you read, hear, preach even. You do not read intellient articles, which promote some free thinking, encourage you to question, or seek further evidence, etc etc. Atheists are on a "need to know" journey, we don't take things for granted, things we can't see. If there is some great power out there, which puts life on earth, or made the earth, you call it God, we call it science, whatever it may be. How dare you assume that we all have to believe what you believe. Why are you so worried about what Sierra says or believes. This was my point in my first posting. We are not concerned with what you believe, but you constantly try to convert people. Why? Are you worried that you might not have enough accomplances with your religion? Or will you receive "specialtreatment in heaven" if you convert a few more? Give it away, or start talking sense.
Sunami , 17.04.2005, 11:12pm link
Some suggested reading: http://www.thehappyheretic.com/default.htm
Sunami , 17.04.2005, 11:14pm link
So, there's this bloke who wanders around the Middle East, performing miracles including (but not limited to) raising the dead, healing the sick, and walking on water. However, he is betrayed and killed, but rises again on the third day. Who are we talking about?
Osiris, King of the Egyptian Gods. The legend was simply nicked and tacked onto the legend of Jesus by the proto-Xpians, as their Messiah had to be bigger than everyone else's Messiah. But like with many Xpian legends and holidays, they were simply stolen from existing cultures and legends.
But many people don't know that.
Tony [Email], 18.04.2005, 12:03am link
Sunami,
I don't preach as if I know it all. I don't know it all and never will come close to it. I am not trying to convert anyone. The evidence for God is overwhelming. I see it everyday when I meditate. I am no better than anyone else. We are here for a reason, to fulfill our mission.
I am not interested in an argument or debate.
We are on all on the path. The path to the big picture is available for all of us. We are complete at each stage of the path. You are exactly where you are supposed to be and so am I. I am no better than you, and am no better than anyone who writes on this site.
Mr X , 18.04.2005, 12:12am link
Silence the ego, do not listen it's voice. It believes in separatness and in being special.
Let your higher self rule.
The ego is the false idea and false concept of yourself. Go within, and find your higher self.
Mr X , 18.04.2005, 12:16am link
The only difference between alone and all-one is one letter l, which stands for love.
Mr X , 18.04.2005, 12:17am link
Yeah, well the only difference between god and dog is the way you arrange the letters.

Here boy....here boy....good boy...now...perform a miracle......

D
Sierra [Email], 18.04.2005, 2:18am link
Sierra,
there isn't one cell in your body that was there 7 years ago, but you certainly recall being around 7 years ago. How do you account for this?
Your life comes from a different dimension, the force that gives you life is not of this world. You can't measure it. It's a different world.
Mr X , 18.04.2005, 2:29am link
MrX. Re:your comment to Sierra: Your life comes from a different dimension, the force that gives you life is not of this world. You can't measure. Where on earth do you get your infomration that this is so? from your own head? interesting...
Sunami , 18.04.2005, 3:45am link
MrX ..quoting your post further up.
I feel special already, I have a lovely marriage, two wonderful children.. I already feel special.. I don't need your God to make me "feel special"..You pretend, or rather, try to be so full of "wisdom" that you think you can save us poor souls out there who say there is no God. Give it away I tell you, you won't convince us anyway. Atheism obviously bothers you otherwise you wouldn't be so full of yourself, with all this bullshit. Have you at least taken an interest in the web site I recommended furth back? I bet not. It goes against your 'grain' I suppose to read anything that might shake your faith from it's ridiculous and "make believe' foundation. I will comment no further as this is a 'never ending' saga and I have more to do with my life. Cheerio everyone!
Sunami , 18.04.2005, 3:54am link
X-

You are a nut plain and simple.

I recall being around all my life because A. neurological tissue is NOT replaced - you use what you are or aren't born with (which in large part accounts for religion) and B. memory is a neuro-CHEMICAL function, which, even if the cells were replaced, would be the same (an orange is an orange whether it grew now or 100 years ago).

The force that gives me life is ELECTRICITY. Thats it.

Christianity on the otherhand is powered by METHANE, which rises is copius amounts from the BULLSHIT that is the bible.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 18.04.2005, 3:59am link
While stumbling around the www I found this site! I would just like to add my 5 cents worth; I believe W.C. Fields said “I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member”! If there is a god and that god will “judge” me, if he then won’t let me into “Heaven” because I didn’t believe in him I don’t want to go there, Surely how you live your life is more important than worshiping a god, I do not believe in any sort of god, But I do believe in the power of good and evil Is that a contradiction?, I’m sure we have all been to a meeting at work or elsewhere where there has been a speaker (Salesman?) who has fired us all up to go out and sell Blogoo Soap!!!, Is that how good preachers and evil dictators (or evil preachers and good dictators) work? Does that prove there is a god or that most people are happy to believe what they are told?

I love talking about Religion and Politics, But if there is no requirement to believe in god does that mean I don’t have to believe in politicians either?
Pete
Pete [Email], 18.04.2005, 10:23am link
The only meaning in your life is what you do with it. Good or bad, win or lose, its largely up to you (with a little random chance stirred in to keep things exciting).

The religous contradiction (the first of many) is that everthing is planned out ahead of time and yet you are still responsible for your actions.

Bullshit.

My life is up to me. There is no invisible Diety-man planning or participating and the world would have to be free of a lot more suffering before I would even CONSIDER worshiping the bastard.

"Jesus", if he existed at all, was likely some loudmouthed jew who got killed by the romans as a troublemaker.

Everything else was simply made up.

D
Sierra , 18.04.2005, 4:02pm link
Apparently god's inability to handle his finances properly continues to have fallout.
-------------

ROME, Italy (AP) -- Four people have been indicted on murder charges in the death of Italian financier Roberto Calvi, a banker with close ties to the Vatican who was found hanging under a bridge in London in 1982, a defense attorney said.
Businessman Flavio Carboni; his ex-girlfriend Manuela Kleinszig, and two men with alleged ties to the Mafia, Giuseppe "Pippo" Calo and Ernesto Diotallevi, will stand trial in October, Carboni's lawyer said Monday.
Calvi was dubbed "God's banker" because of his ties with the Vatican's bank and its former top official, the American Archbishop Paul C. Marcinkus.

Calvi's body was found under a bridge in London on June 18, 1982, his suit pockets stuffed with rocks and bricks, along with a falsified passport and thousands of dollars worth of various currencies, authorities said.
The discovery came days after the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, where he was president and in which the Vatican's bank held a significant stake.

The collapse was Italy's biggest postwar banking scandal.
Renato Borzone, the lawyer representing Carboni, rejected the prosecution's allegations.
"The defense maintains that -- based on medical examinations -- Calvi committed suicide and was not murdered," Borzone said. "There are elements favorable to the defense as well as the prosecution. There are things that have to be clarified."

Carboni was a friend of Calvi's and one of the last people known to have seen to the banker alive.
Prosecutors and court officials were not immediately available for comment.

Banco Ambrosiano fell apart following the disappearance of $1.3 billion. The Vatican's bank agreed to pay $250 million to the Italian bank's creditors, but denied any wrongdoing. Marcinkus also denied wrongdoing.
In July 2003, Italian prosecutors issued a report concluding that Calvi did not commit suicide, but was killed.
British police announced in 2003 that they had begun a murder inquiry into Calvi's death after a detailed review of the case.

In December 2003, a 42-year-old woman was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to pervert the course of justice, and of perjury.
------------

Apparently much is afoot with respect to gods money. No wonder his hand is always out.

D
Sierra , 18.04.2005, 7:30pm link
You can go to church and practice all kinds of rituals and repeat bible sayings all you want, but you can't find your heart in a temple until you have the temple in your heart.
Mr X , 19.04.2005, 2:25am link
Thats a damn nice bit of prose there.

Put another way...

"You have to be gullable enough to believe anything before you will start to find anything to believe".

Actually, that kind of ties the entire concept of religous faith into one nice tidy bundle!!!

Damn I'm good!!!

No black smoke out of the tower for me!!!!


There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 19.04.2005, 3:17am link
"The evidence for God is overwhelming. I see it everyday when I meditate..." No problem, just show them to us and we will start to believe in a second. It's amazing how incomplete scientific information is inserted in "believers" speech when seems to suit them. Of course, what seems to not suit is not true at all...
ro , 19.04.2005, 3:37pm link
T
DOC. , 19.04.2005, 7:03pm link
Why do you require me to show you? Practice transcendental meditation and you will see for yourself. Suspend your ego, and allow spirit to rule for a while.
The world to a baby in the mother's womb is very limited, dark, wet. According to Sierra, this is all there is, and all there will be. However, the tremors the baby feels, the pressure is coming from an external force that Sierra will deny to the end and use all kinds of logic to justify it.
What happens? The baby is born and see's mother face to face. You see, the pressures we feel in life, are preparing us for a greater destiny. Our physical death will re-unite us with God, and we will see God face to face.
Mr X , 20.04.2005, 12:12am link
You don't need to be a catholic or go to church to connect with God. You need to be willing. You need to get into the gap. It's the silence between the notes that makes the music. Get into that gap, and you will see God. God's beautiful voice is silence. Be still, get silent and know there is God.
Mr X , 20.04.2005, 12:14am link
We are spiritual beings having a human experience. At one point you were not in this world, and then in a holy instant came into this world.
Sierra and co., how do you account for this? What were you before you came into this world? Why did you come into this world?
Mr X , 20.04.2005, 12:19am link
You are a winner, not a sinner. There will millions of sperm chasing an egg, and you won. You whoever you are , are a winner right from the beginning.
Mr X , 20.04.2005, 12:20am link
I'm willing to connect with god......very willing.....

Let the heartless bastard appear before me and I will believe.

Just a brief stop in would be all that it would take.

Still, day after day.....nothing.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 20.04.2005, 12:55am link
Ever person in their being is willing to connect to a deity of some sort. That much is obvious. But, to echo both Sierra's and my own earlier words, I give an open invitation to any deity at all. So far, no one's showed up. And since I don't use drugs, I doubt any ever will.

Meditation is great for relaxation, so long as the "jerks" don't bother you. Still, I never saw a deity that way either. If you ARE actually seeing a deity, you might want to have a doctor check you out and see if you are having low-grade seizures in the frontal lobe area. Scientists have proven that a lot of things usually described as a religious experience are actually a form of epilepsy. I.E. Hearing voices, feeling a presence, seeing or smelling things that aren't there.... I'd get it checked out before you go into a full-blown seizure. Wouldn't want you to trade your 105K salary for Social Security.

As for how I came into this world...I don't know about you, son, but my mommy and daddy had sex. (Sorry. Someone had to say it.)
Dropinin , 20.04.2005, 1:38am link
P.S.

To whomever it is (Pascal?) that's been out of work for so long...

I think your problem is two-fold. You are either spending way too much time on the internet, or putting too much "faith" in something else magically helping you. There is a Muslim saying I always loved. "Pray to Allah to give you a camel." Of course, they say it in complete sarcasm. You see, there is an interesting parallel to this...the marriages of atheists, agnostics, and other irreligious are less likely to end in divorce, and the most hard-line of religions (i.e. fundamentalists) are more likely to end in divorce. (I remember televangelist Pat Robertson complaining about these statistics several years ago, so it isn't just some atheist trick.) Why? Because the irreligious tend to take responsibility for their actions, while the religious have a tendency to put it in the hands of a Deity that never shows up. They expect change, yet do nothing to change their circumstances. Now, if your faith helps you change your circumstances, then good...let it. But so far, it looks like you decided to join the Jesus crowd in hopes that you will get a job. That's the number one way they sucker you in. And for your family's sake, I hope you aren't sending any of your money to these thieves, hoping to buy yourself a job.
Dropinin , 20.04.2005, 2:02am link
p.s.s...

Sorry, but I thought if I were to reference something, I should show the references. The marriage data was done by the Barna Institute (an evangelical group in the U.S.), and the seizure study was headed by Dr Vilayanur Ramachandran at the University of California in San Diego.
Dropinin , 20.04.2005, 2:24am link
Those are great points.

First, I really don't want to connect with a diety. It would be nice for them to prove they existed, but if they did, they have already proven themselves too needy in terms of worship and lauding and I have more important things to do. If I could get one too appear I would probably just have my picture taken with it and send it on its way.

Your comments on Pascal are right on. He is looking for Mr. Diety-farce to fix his problem. The other way people like this this approach problems is to do nothing and see what turns up randomly. They they proclaim that its gods will.

The reality is that he is lazy and looking for an opiate (religion) to make his lack of productive work seem ok.

D
Sierra [Email], 20.04.2005, 3:57pm link
Ha ha ha. Take a picture. Cute.

I actually think in kind of the opposite way...were I a God, I'd take a look at my worshippers and go, "Uh...I'm outa here." Seriously, if you were Jesus, looking down at the Earth, would you want these people bowing and scraping to you? At least the Pagan Gods would have some fun with THEIR worshippers.

Lazy...excellent point. I see a lot of that with the God=morality crowd. Too lazy to even think through anything. They just want someone to tell them what to do. Even too lazy to question those things that would seem hypocritical at best, schizophrenic at worst. Ever read the Koran? Whew! Just as Schizo as the Bible. The only "Holy Text" I've read so far that was consistant was the Satanic Bible...and I ended up laughing most of the way through it.
Dropinin , 20.04.2005, 7:52pm link
Heavy duty drug addicts and full blown jezus junkies have vary similar behavior patterns. They both are going for the same high and both get upset when you mess with their stash.

Lets say I am working side by side (and living next to) a jezus junkie and a drug addict and we all get laid off at the same time. We all dash home to confront our new problem.

1. The drug addict hits the door and goes for his stash. Out comes the crack rocks and pipe or his herion and his needle. In a few minutes he had a chemical induced euphoria corsing through his body and is high as a kite. No more work for him that day.

2. The jezus junkie hits the door and goes for his stash. Out comes the bible, some holy candles and a nice picture of jezus. He lights some candles, hits his knees and in a few minutes has mumbled some prayers. He then has the "holy spirit" corsing through his body and is high as a kite. No more work for him that day.

3. I hit the door and go for my stash. In less than 20 minutes I am showered and shaved, wearing a nice suit and tie and clutching a folio with a stack of resumes. Its off to interviews and a placement service. I jump in the car and off I go shouting...."have fun jackass" to my neighbors.

Now, six months later I will have a job. Mr. druggee will have od'd and the state will have had to pay to bury him. Mr. god-smacker will also have od'd. He will be down at the church 7 days a week, whining about the unchristian people who have taken his home away from him and how he knows god has a plan for him if he just waits for it.

I on the other hand just got a six-month raise at my new job, and instead of giving a dime of it to the "holy man" I bought myself a new boat.

I name the beauty "Gods Will" and park it in the driveway so those words, painted on the stern, are in clear view of the homes of my dead and destitute neighbors!!!!

D
Sierra [Email], 20.04.2005, 8:11pm link
mr x sure seems to crave the attention and human interaction he's not getting from his 'god'.

i can just imagine the poor guy, an insecure technie/nerd who had finally at long found something to make himself feel special about himself. you can read his insecurity and gnawing, unsasiated need to "be better" than someone else from his constant boasting about his salary, his trip to hawaii, his connection to god, ad nausem.

ostracized by his peers, inexperienced and afraid to really interact with his peers on a personal level, socially awkward, mr x seeks to satisfy his basic human need for social interaction online. unfortunately, due to his inexperience and social ineptitude, mr x doesn't seem to have learned much about normal human interactions on this planet. the only techniques he seems to know are antagonizing others and boasting about himself. these techniques may have in elementary school to draw attention and thus human contact for mr x, but sadly this type of behavior is inappropriate and rather pathetic to see on an website where more mature adults like to discuss intelligent issues.

even mr x's "arguments" betray his child-like mindset and behavior as each time he is confronted with facts he does not like, he just comes out with the same tired and worthless retort. it's amazing how adults like mr x can function in today's society at all.

sorry this has nothing to do with chrisitianity or atheism or any other religious matter. just an observation on immaturity and sad behavior of "mr x".

although i must say that sierra may not be much better with the name calling and such.

it would be nice, just once to read some intelligent discussions that doesn't sound like a bunch of little 5 year olds squabbling in the playground. it's honestly pathetic. cheers.
god is watching mr x [Home], 21.04.2005, 11:18am link
Hey ---

I resemble that remark!!!!

Your statement "the only techniques he seems to know are antagonizing others and boasting about himself".....boy I'll tell you....I think you just struck upon the inner motivations of the christian diety.

Maybe mr x is god!!!!


D
Sierra [Email], 21.04.2005, 3:54pm link
Well, after reading all these comments I feel compelled to drop a note in here.

What all of you fail to realise is that the chance of there being a "God", is 1/2 - yea. You know, on judgment day, there either will, or wont be some guy there waiting to judge.

So, in my view, its a 50/50 chance ?

Now those odds are sorted, if you were a betting man, would you not put a few quid on both? as oppose to slating the other option and cutting of your nose to spite your face.

Me for one will have a little flutter on the other, to keep it safe.

Peace.
Fletch [Email], 23.04.2005, 5:04am link
perhaps it is a 50/50 chance in whatever denomination of christianity you are referring to. but what about the god in the muslim religion, or the nirvana in buddhism? are these not given equal weight as possibilities? in your potential ignorance, have you already accepted that life is so black and white? god OR no god? the god you refer to is but a tiny subset (particular to the western european world) in a whole world of different religions and beliefs. and how should you measure the odds of atheism? is that but a tiny subset to a whole world of contrasting beliefs or is there a "non-belief" for each "belief"?

if there is a "no god" chance and a "no nirvana" chance and a "no allah" chance, etc, then are the odds not 50/50 for the nonreligious? with the other 50 percent chance being some sort of religion, whether it is buddhism, catholicism, muslim, fundamentalist christian, protestant, wiccan, scientology, ad nauseum... in which a "god" has only a tiny percentage of existence?

is there some reason that you would give more weight to a "god" than to a "nirvana"? just because the religions with "god" often evangelize and have seeked to convert the entire world since day 1? is it somehow "better" than those other religions that are in fact older? for that matter, what about Zeus and the gods of the panthenon?

you're like a gambler who thinks there is a 50/50 chance on the odds of landing the number "13" on the roulette wheel, because only "13" and "not 13" exists. i certainly hope you're a better betting man than that.
god\'s god , 23.04.2005, 7:31am link
fletch - your logic is also skewed as you are presupposing a "judgement day" of some sort. what are the odds of there being a "judgement day" as opposed to something else? anything else?

have you ever taken statistics? permutations and combinations? you've already selected the odds of the first combination - that there will be a judgement day. you are therefore now only looking at the subset of all possibilities within that judgement day possibility.
god is bullshit , 23.04.2005, 7:39am link
Fletch,

Religion is bullshit. There is no god and you math is flawed.

Right now I see absolutely no evidence of a giant pink bunny sitting in the room with me. The absence of any evidence does not in any way suggest that its only 50/50 that its not sitting here with me.

That is a riduculous suggesting - that its 50/50 that things we can't see are actually there.

There is no god. Not at all. 100%

D
Sierra [Email], 23.04.2005, 4:20pm link
About that remark Xtians aren,t responsible for Matt Sheperds death. Bullshit, It ultmatly is the hatred spread by christain voices on homosexuality to muster more titheing. Poeple woild never donate at a sermon preaching about divorce and 2nd marriages. And just look at the Chritian monument Westboro Baptist church has put out for Matt dating the event when he was sent to hell.

The whole Idea of a savior is flawd. Thats why 80% of all criminals incarserated are Christians at the time of arrest. They are taught they dont have to take responsibility for their actions Jesus will do that for them.

idiots!!!

Jenn
Jennifer [Email], 27.04.2005, 6:15am link
Hello I am The Grat And I hope the Auther of this website reads this...I am gueseing that you are infact a young person... becuase i can see the anger that most of us have at this age im young too im 20 and I use to have to study the bible 24 7 i know it very very well i had either a bible study or church EVER DAY... Now am i a Christain No...atleast i dont know Am I an atheist No I beliave in a higer power now wether or not hes God, Alla(God in the Arabic Language),Shiva i dont care he could be a mushroom with seven penises, i dont care nor can even come close to knowing what he looks like. Now I differ from you on the point that reliogn is bad OF course i disagree. REligon itself is very very powerful atleast it can be... In most almost All the bottom line of a religion is love and GOD DAM COMMON SENSE. NOw Religion Can be VERY VERY Dangerous just like most other things taht can be carried away. Like i said religion can be powerful ive seen it turn crack heads into good people and other pieces of shit into good decent people. Now im not nieave i grew up on the streets for half of my life and ive had to deal with a crack head mother. Now were was god in all this i dont no but does that realy matter i dont think so, What does matter is the cathilic grandma that has so much love for everyone that just being around her makes most people happy or a muslim grandma that does the same... Now my bible says that one of these is going to hell and taht is why i cant be a christain becuase i dont believe that and there for if i truely beliave in bible I must forfeit it as false. Now that religous Loving Grandma is the true meaning of A cristain or muslim or twhat ever its mostly safe and bla bla now people like bush that use it as a weapon and people that look down on others becuase there going to hell now thats were it gets dangerous. When you start saying that people are stupid for not beliaveing somthing you can prove... now atheist have to be careful not to do that either. You should try to stay away from comdeming them for beliving in a 2000 thousand year old capenter you should save it for when they close there minds to an intelligent coversation on how there religion is full of holes. OR on how most of them are nieave. For if you do condem them for beliving in somting that they can prove then you are not better for NO one can prove that there is or isnt a GOD. Yes religion can be dangerous and yes ALOT OF cristains ARE FUCKING STUPID AS HELL but so are alot of green peace dumbasses. The whole point and beuaty of a religion is that it can change a person for the good trhoug love

Thank you the Grat
TheGrat , 30.04.2005, 6:06am link
I would suggest these opinions are kept to yourself, obviously you people don't understand anything.
I will see to it that websites like these are permanently censored from the Internet
Steve [Email], 30.04.2005, 4:37pm link
How are you going to do that, Steve, you jackass?

There is no god!!!

D
Sierra [Email], 01.05.2005, 9:32pm link
its pretty funny really. christians claim to live by these rules when they are the definition of hypocrites. there was a lawsuit i beleive in the 1960's where christians were mentioned under 'hypocrites'. once again, christians had their shota t the world and as it was proven,'it took god six days to make the world.' humans are more powerful then this 'god' thing. it took us about fifty signature sin under three hours to screw it over :)and a few cute things to. i'd be fine with christians if they weren't so psychopathic. im part of the GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance)and one of my friends in CA was cornered by a christian girl who said "you're going to hell cuz you're an atheist and suport gay rights" his prompt replie in 2/100th of a second was.
"what about you? you spread your legs for anyone!" she was dumfounded for about half a minute, when she finally stuttered out:"uh...(drools) god forgives!" to my friends prmpt reply: "then 'god' can forgive me too." not too mention, when we were doing a GSA day of silence as a protest, a good deal of christians kicked me and m friends, butwe held firm to our oath of silence, and i made a sign that said: "love thy neighbor" and held it next to our gay rights sign. i saw alot of eager anti-gay faces deflate that day.

all due respect to anyone with religon, an ounce of logic, and the question that started it all: "why?"
CJ [Email], 03.05.2005, 5:54am link
you know, it jsut came to mind. on a web site, the witches voice or something like that, there was a pastor who convinced the congregation to dress their children as saints and their parents as the inquisition and tell your child you'll kill them if they do other wise.

it's times liek these i refer back to noe of the greatest books ever. the HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy. and then i thoguht: if aliens want to make peaceful contact with earth, they better choose a safer location thena populated one. a active volcano would do quite nicley. i don't beleive in a god, but that i am my own ruler, and no one else determines that. i ahev seen mroe harm come froma christians then good these past few years. i hope it ends soon.



we're so screwed.
CJ [Email], 03.05.2005, 6:00am link
mind you sierra, their woman are muslims as well. i say instead of killing them give them a different point of veiw. the wiccans got it right. they don't need tn commandments to be good people. only one.
"and it harm none, do what you will."
CJ [Email], 03.05.2005, 6:02am link
I am so happy I stumbled across this website today. I had a facinating event happen recently, and it fits very neatly into the discussion here.

I went over to the home of a friend of mine and he showed me this incredible painting. It was rich in detail, exactness, and emotion. Of course, I wanted to know who the artist was so I could check into their works. When I asked him who painted it, he looked at me like I was an idiot and said, "no one painted it, you fool - there was this explosion in here and that is the end result.'

I argued with him for many hours over it, stating that 'someone' had to paint it, but he kept saying, over and over, 'there is no painter, there is no painter.'

Under the force of such intelligent arguments, I gave in and agreed with him. Obviously, it makes more sense - logically speaking - that no one painted it.

I really feel foolish, in retrospect. What kind of fool was I to believe that there was artist behind the masterpiece?

Boy, is my face red...
Stone [Email][Home], 08.05.2005, 5:09pm link
Big difference you idiot.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 09.05.2005, 6:04am link
Once again, I am overwhelmed by the depth of the arguement presented. I bow before the demonstration of wisdom, which is obviously far more evolved than my own - after all, I am but a lowly idiot.

There is no painter.
Stone [Email][Home], 09.05.2005, 12:00pm link
Stone, You are a friggin moron zealot. If you had half the brain of a knat, maybe you would be able to understand a few scientific occurences.........I have no degree in physics so I can't offer much in the way of argument.....but it sure sounds alot better that some make beleive figure that you lemmings follow..I bet you beleive in the tooth fairy and the easter bunny too huh.......Oh wait....I think god sacrificed the easter bunny for it's blood.......The only good thing about religon is that it helps me identify the dumbasses in my local neighborhood when I see them come out of church....good for a laugh....
Weasel
Weasel , 09.05.2005, 9:50pm link
"I am but a lowly idiot.".....Well at least you got part of your post right.....and wait....did you dare mention the "E" word!!!!!!.Quick! go to you church and dunk your head in holy water......ummmm....and hold it there.......
Weasel , 09.05.2005, 9:53pm link
Weasel -

Well, you sure put me in my place. I am humbled by the piercing force of your arguement.

Uh - no, wait - I am not. You have the nerve to call me a moron yet you cannot come up with an intelligent retort to my 'painter' analogy - you even admit that you are uneducated about the field. You then resort to the age-old trick of abusive name-calling when you do not have facts to back up your ridiculous assertions.

And I'm the moron. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself...

Oh, and while we are on the 'moron' topic, why are you so sure I am a Christian zealot? Once again, you are as wrong as the day is long - I am a practicing Pagan whose posts can be seen often on Witchvox under my full name, Stone Bryson. I am not surprised you made this error, however - you are so blinded by your irrational hatred that your capacity for independent thought is anemic.

All I was saying in my post about the painter is that if one sees a creation of art, one normally does not assume it just happened - they usually ask 'who did it?' Seems like the logical question to me. However, when it comes to metaphysics the rules seem to reverse. Look, I am not saying that a god or a goddess or a supernatural force got the creation process started - all I am saying is that - logically - someone, or something, HAD to. All other options defy the bounds of logic.

You would have noticed these facts in my earlier post if you were not blinded by your fiery hatred. I came on here under the false assumption that Atheists - who are reportedly intelligent folks - would provide a stimulating and thoughtful debate on the topic. What you (and Seirra) have proven with your posts is that there are 'zealots' in every school of thought - including your own.

You are no different than Pat Robertson - you just serve a different master than he. While he worships (with radical and foolish faith) his god, you carry the torch - angrily, without rational thought - for the religion of science. So look around you, Weasel - you are in ill company, indeed.

- Stone
Stone [Email][Home], 10.05.2005, 9:25am link
no one's answered your questions?

ok.

jesus' sacrifice was going through something awful as a symbol of his love for us. god said "i love you guys" and no one really cared. so he said, ok, "let me show you how much i love you".

the point of it was that he became human and went through the ultimate degradation, he suffered like we suffer so that we'd know how much he loved us.

you could get really theological and say, seeing as he was taking the punishment for our sin, that it was spiritual pain as well as mental pain. jesus was god, but he was also human, and while he was on that cross, the human part of him would have been thinking nothing but "why the fuck do i have to go through this? why have you forsaken me?"

you're right. christians are hypocrites. we're stupid and immature and pained and fucked up just like the rest of the human race because we are JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN RACE. the point of christianity is not being perfect, it's attempting to improve yourself.

i'm a christian and i'm a hypocrite. i deal with that. why do christians whinge about persecution? i don't know. maybe because no matter what you believe, you will always get shit for it, same as jews do, same as atheists do, same as you probably have for starting this website.

god didn't HAVE to make blood sacrifice for us, the way i see it is that it was something he wanted to do to get it into our thick heads that he loved us. that's what i reckon.

i agree with stone. by starting this website and hating christians and everything they stand for, you're as bad as those over-zealous christians who you hate so much.

sierra, you say that christians should just have their beliefs and not force other people to accept them? i agree, wholeheartedly. i think people should be able to discuss their beliefs with others as and when they want to. we can learn from each other, maybe see each other's points of views but everyone needs to know when to back off.

everyone needs to know when trying to tell someone about jesus becomes unwanted harassment.

everyone needs to know when having a healthy irreverence for christianity and a strong disagreement with its beliefs becomes starting a website called 'religion is bullshit'. there's a line.
ffyona [Email][Home], 11.05.2005, 3:49pm link
dude, stone, the chances that the painting occured by chance are incredibly slim. i wouldn't have given into the accident thig for 100$. 101$ however... lol, jking.

and the name of the website is kinda funny, but its hard to laugh in a lutheran family.

sierra needs to calm downa bit. someone forgot their ADD pills today.

i'm still an atheist and all, but with the bible, keep the morals that work for you. tahts what i did, but i can't help to notice(this is what kinda got ,me started in the first palce) the ten commandments are cool and all, but theres no "thou shall not rape" or "thou shall not burn the forest to the ground for the hell of it"

and another thing, no disrespect, but ithink i may have found in a ible when i was bored in one of the chapters that starts with an L, like ludacris or soemthing abouts elling your duaghter into sex slavery. not a good deal if you ask me.
CJ , 12.05.2005, 12:46am link
The mere fact that it is SO improbable that the nice painting occurred randomly is EXACTLY WHY it should be appreciated. It is no proof of a painter.

If it was mounted and signed, that would be one thing. The mere fact that colors came together that you think is pretty is proof of nothing.

Most people with any intelligence would look at the same "color smear" from your explosion and see bomb damage.

You, of course, see the work of a god.

There is no god. No painter. Nothing.

D
Sierra [Email], 12.05.2005, 7:36am link
Sierra -

In my painter analogy, I was not talking about a post-modern swirl of colors that 'looks' like something - I was talking about a definitive work that - without doubt - represents something tangible. I was referring to the kind of work that could not be attributed to 'bomb damage.'

So my question remains - when you see a painting that is - without question - a painting of something tangible, do you ask "who painted it?" - or do you assume that no one painted it and it just happened by accident.

Even though you appear to be angry about religion as a whole, you also seem like an intelligent person - I cannot believe that you would choose the later over the former. So why is it so difficult to entertain the possibility that something created all of this? Not necessarily Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah, but 'something.'

Enjoy your day - Stone.
Stone [Email][Home], 14.05.2005, 1:47am link
Why does there have to be 'something?' Why can't it all' just be?' because we will NEVER know why it all IS! We are all just here.. and why do people have to believe there is a creation for it all? I can enjoy this life, planet, and all things in it. I live.. for now, today, here and now. Why all this religious jargon, I am here and no one can tell you why? No book or person, because people are just that, people, and all you get is people's versions, ideas,thoughts,or what we read regarding evolution, creation etc etc. I don't believe in any of it except that I am here and make the most of it all. Why must there always be a reason for everything? We are here. We live, we die. End of story. Be kind to your fellow man, be decent, be respectful, be sensible, stay focused on what's here now.. because one day it's all gone and you can't take anything with you. I can enjoy my beautiful garden, and get a thrill to see the beauty of it all. Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is? Nature! This amazing planet. Why or why does there always have to be a "reason" for being? or creating it all? If it was evolution, then so be it. Who cares? Aren't we just so lucky to be alive at all? Jeez.. and all this meditation, and mr x.. god within and all that stuff. Who needs it when we can enjoy what's out there just for the sake of it all? So many ideas, so many "Gods".. which one do you believe in anyhow? Who's the right God? Why not just enjoy life. The disasters, the sickness, the tragedies in this life are bad enough to cope with on a day to day basis. If we concentrated more on what is, here and now, and tried to improve life for our future generation, and not destroy this wonderful planet, we would have a purpose for being here, and not some deity, or god/creation, or anything else. Just imagine, if there were no relgion at all, we wouldn't have had the Holocoast, and now the Iraq crisis? Doesn't that mean anything to all those relgious people out there? I'm an Aussie..our prime minister lied, because Bush lied, and Blair lied.. a breed of liars.. and all are so called Christians.. and they all lie. What a world indeed. Hypocrits, liars, and it's never been any different. Arguments, over who believes what.. what for? in the end you will all find out if there is anything, after death! Hate, swearing, all these posts I have read. What a disaster for the human race. But.. okay, it's interesting.. and I like to hear what people have to say.. but glad that I'm not a Christian.. I don't like to be dillusional. I see my garden, and that's as real as life and death is going to get for me thanks!
sunami , 15.05.2005, 1:11am link
sunami, i really like what you wrote, i thought it was great, very passionate, very thought provoking. i agree with you, to an extent. we have been given an awesome world and we should just be trying to enjoy it and enjoy life and each other.

the only difference is i believe we were given this world by a 'something', for a reason. it doesn't matter that you don't, it's all gravy. so then why do people have to devote websites to so earnestly hating a thing, a group of people?

religion is bullshit... maybe that's just bullshit.
ffyona [Email][Home], 15.05.2005, 9:32pm link
I saw a picture of a pig one time. It was black and white (the pig) and one one side of the white pig was the clear three black dot image used to represent mickey mouse. I mean it was PERFECT.

Now I think this is just a fluke - a neat pattern of random hair growth that became a shape that has meaning to us.

You believers in Mr. Diety-farce will argue that this pig represents one of two things:

1. A message from god that we should all head to the magic kingdom (on earth) (I guess before we head to the one in heaven).

2. Walt Disney is reaching back (austensibly with god's permission) to drum up business for his park.

So bible-thumpers, which is it.................


1. Random bovine hair growth
2. A holy vacation message from god
3. Post-mortem advertising

There is no god. Pigs and art not withstanding.

D
Sierra [Email], 17.05.2005, 2:36am link
Not bovine, pig.
Sierra [Email], 17.05.2005, 2:37am link
one of my friends had a argument witha religous girl again,a nd the final words he said were these: would suck god's holy cock to get to heaven?

he won.
CJ , 18.05.2005, 4:26am link
sierra - read through what you write and see how ridiculous you sound. you're obviously intelligent so why do you resort to such a puerile way of making your point?

mocking christians doesn't help your case, it detracts from it because it makes it look like the only point you can make against religion is "there is no god". over and over again.

there is a god.
x
ffyona [Email][Home], 18.05.2005, 10:20am link
There is no god. It is a farce and absolutely does not exist.

It is not remotely possible for the bible to be even partially correct.

If you chose to believe you are being foolish, wasting your time and your life.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 18.05.2005, 4:26pm link
whats the purpose of this site? to prove to christians that their religion is absurd?
u are a shallow dumbfuck, we dont care if its absurd or not it gives us happiness and justifies the painful things that happen in the world. If u cant see that ure a morron. Youre free to share your opinion, but you dont have to hate us and disrespect our religion because u dont agree with us do u? Fuck you, you herb.
Paul [Email], 18.05.2005, 8:52pm link
Ha ha ha...

How can you not feel like an IDIOT believing in something you ADMIT is bullshit?

What a JACKASS.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 19.05.2005, 5:21am link
hey sierra, everytime you don't answer a question i ask you, you look less and less like someone with a clue what they're talking about.

it's all bullshit. yep, billions of people MUST be wrong just because YOU can SWEAR IN CAPITALS.

seriously. why is there no god? tell me, prove me wrong, make me lose my faith, destroy it all.

there is a god.
xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 19.05.2005, 10:22pm link
"No one who thinks would seriously believe"

oh that made me laugh. i laughed long and hard.

*thinks*

whoops.
ffyona [Email][Home], 19.05.2005, 10:25pm link
The simple fact that we are here debating this topic proves that God exists, for if God did not exist we (and everything else in, and including, the universe) would not exist. There would quite literally be nothing at all. There, simple.

There is a God!
PA , 20.05.2005, 6:31am link
'We don't care if its absurd' - Paul. I think that basically sums up the Christian point-of-view. Yes Paul, it is absurd, very much so. The entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation is nothing but a motley collection of plagiarized fairy-tales, and the sooner Christians come to realise this the better (for everyone concerned).
PA , 21.05.2005, 2:56am link
*waits* c'mon guys, this is a great opportunity for you, prove yourselves right and tell me why god doesn't exist.

i've never had to argue my corner before, indulge me, i want to see what the arguments against are.

there is a god
xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 22.05.2005, 8:03pm link
ffyona - try actually reading some other posts. Answers to why there cannot be a god (what exactly do you mean by the term "God" anyway) can be found here:
http://www.religionisbullshit.net/2005/02/intelligent-design.php
Tim [Home], 22.05.2005, 8:15pm link
... and here
http://www.religionisbullshit.net/2005/03/some-basics.php
Tim [Home], 22.05.2005, 8:16pm link
Prove he it does not exist? Are you nuts ffyona?

I don't have to prove a negative. Show me how the silly bastard exists.

With the exception of murder I have broken almost every "commandment". I drink, sewar, buy lottery tickets, have sex with women (including during their "unclean" period).....on and on.....


Absolutely nothing ever happens to me. I get richer and have a great time.

Give me one tiny bit of proof of god. ANYTHING that can be objectively verified.

Screw the silly bastard, christianity, you bible thumpers, your churches....all of it.

It may be a christian nation, but it is an ATHIEST UNIVERSE.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 23.05.2005, 5:15am link
tim, apologies for not reading up, the weight of posts and comments on this site is massive, i wasn't sure if i would find what i was looking for, but you've found it for me.

your two reasons why a 'universal creator' cannot exist.

1) is not a reason. it's disagreeing with the 'humans are complex and so must have been created' argument, not coming up with a new point.

and on that point, why is it absurd to think that we must have been created? no more absurd than thinking that the universe just happened. it's like the chicken and the egg argument, eventually you have to find a starting point and, to me, it makes sense that SOMETHING must have started the ball rolling. why is that so absurd?

2) the fact that the creator created the universe is the precise reason WHY he/she/it is outside the universe. our understanding is limited to this universe, limited by space and time.

in answer to your question, i believe in the christian god, but i'm talking specifically about any kind of 'universal creator'.

sierra. i'm not gonna answer that from a christian perspective because i'll get distracted. this is me answering as a theist, or deist, whatever you want to call it.

like i say, when i say 'prove to me god doesn't exist', i mean any kind of god, any deity of choice. isn't it possible that maybe there's a god who just doesn't give a shit what we're doing? i believe beyond any doubt that there is a god. our relationship to him is what's up for debate.

the existence of a creator can never be disproved for the sheer fact that a god, by definition, is beyond our understanding. some religions believe we can know some of god's nature, but as humans we aren't capable of fully understanding it.
ffyona [Email][Home], 23.05.2005, 2:20pm link
Clearly you are the type who, in the criminal justice system, believes in guilty until proven innocent. I the case of a burglary in your town you would clearly go door to door making each person prove that they did not do it.

All of you creationists have simply moved the "world is flat" argument into the far reaches of the universe.

You laugh, but statements about things like a round earth and the it not being the center of everything would have gotten you KILLED by your fellow bible thumpers not long ago.

Slowly and systematically science has debunked every "local" point about the bible. The reaction of the diety-farce worshipers is to move the argument to the far reaches of space and to say the word "time".

Now god exists in "another dimension of space-time and perhaps does not intervene as often as we would like".

Really?!!!

So the bible is 100% wrong, "god" created everything but then left and left it to run its course?

Science is reaching the outer limits of space. Along the way they have found no trace of "god". The problem is however is that those who chose to believe in the "invisible man" will never be satisfied. The cry will always be "you have proved nothing". There would never be any way to convince you otherwise as your belief is not objective.

I AM objective. Show me one tiny bit of objective evidence of god and I will change my position.

The idea that god is beyond our understanding is silly. What exactly about him do you think we could not understand? Lets try this....have him show up, and lets see just how much we can figure out.

Again, show me anything. I can show you where he is not (everywhere) just by pointing. Its your turn.

Point him out.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 23.05.2005, 4:25pm link
ffyona - the problem with saying that it must have started somewhere is that you can ask the same questions to the suposed creator, where did he/she/it come from? The "first cause" argument is flawed.
BTW, I'll add your questionnaire response to the site with my comments when I've got a few moments.
Tim [Home], 23.05.2005, 7:16pm link
If that comment sound a bit crap it's beceause I'm slightly pissed.
BTW, it appears you live just down the road from me.
Tim [Home], 23.05.2005, 7:17pm link
"Clearly you are the type who, in the criminal justice system, believes in guilty until proven innocent. I the case of a burglary in your town you would clearly go door to door making each person prove that they did not do it."

no. that's not true.

don't talk about the bible, i said twice that i'm not talking about this from a christian point of view. i'm not talking about disproving christianity, i'm talking about A god, a 'universal creator'.


"The idea that god is beyond our understanding is silly"
no it's not. if god exists he is automatically the hugest, most complex part of anything we can conceive because he created us. are you hearing me?
to assume that a being that created absolutely everything we can see, and everything we can't see, and our entire universe cannot exist outside our understanding is a statement of astonishing arrogance. maybe you just can't accept that anything is outside the realm of your intellect?

if your argument is that god doesn't exist because you can't see him, you're clearly missing the definition of god again. he is a supernatural being, thus the fact that we can't physically see him is no surprise.

proof? millions of people the world over believe in god. millions of people say they have felt his presence. millions of people say that they have seen miracles happen (no, not people seeing the virgin mary in a haystack).

is that a tiny bit of proof?

i don't expect you to start believing in god. i can give you all the evidence of every encounter with god i've ever had, i don't expect you to be convinced. but i don't believe that you can disprove god. and i believe there is more proof 'for' than 'against'.

ffyona xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 23.05.2005, 7:23pm link
Ffyona...

"millions of people the world over believe in god. millions of people say they have felt his presence. millions of people say that they have seen miracles happen (no, not people seeing the virgin mary in a haystack).....is that a tiny bit of proof?"

Absolutely not. Millions of people used to believe the earth was flat. Those near the edge reported seeing monsters. People (lots of them) also believed in dragons.

The mere fact that a lot of people are wrong on a particular issue is no proof that they are right. If that were the case, the greeks would be "proof" that their theology was correct. Is Zeus watching us now?


You also argue that the scale of the "creation" you see is proof of a creator. Well, all I see is very simple processes....dust and gravity, rocks and ice. What is so incomprehensible about that.

Lastly, why would it be no suprise to you that a supernatural being would be invisible? I would consider it quite odd.

What exactly is a supernatural being? Why is there only one in your view? Where did he come from?

Lastly, if he is so god dammed supernatural, why is he so concerned with people worshiping him? Is he insecure?

There is no supernatural being.

D
Sierra [Email], 23.05.2005, 7:49pm link
no i do not argue that the size of creation implies a creator. i argue (sorry if i haven't been clear) that creation is so big, the thing that created it (god) is likely to be out of our range of understanding due to it sheer complexity and power.

again, it's not the fact that many people believe, it's the nature of their belief. the proof i'd give you is that so many people have had religious experiences - they have found what could be seen as proof.

can all of those experiences be explained away to nothing? it seems unfeasible to say so.

- because supernatural beings are not physical, thus not necessarily visible. why should god be visible?

tim - definitely. if god's the chicken, who was his egg? or whatever. i see god partly as being an explanation. how did that matter get there, if there was a big bang than who popped it? i think it's easier to see a creator just being there than a universe just being there.

i don't think it's an argument that can be won, i say again i don't expect to prove god's existence. i just believe that god's existence cannot be disproved.

lol where do you live? or was that a joke that went over my head...

ffyona
xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 23.05.2005, 10:02pm link
So... you argue that a deity would be by nature unknowable, and incomprehensible to the human mind? You say that such a creature defies logic (as we know it) and is "not necessarily visible". What reason, therefore, do you have to believe in it? Leaving aside the Bible, full of absurd contradictions and scientific errors, how do you account for this being? You can't. There is no reason to believe he exists. Of course the universe must have come from somewhere, and scientists are in the process of determining that. Though they may not know now, it is probable (just as with the structure of space, the size of the earth, the shape of the universe, and evolution) they will find an answer to this problem. If you admit that this deity is unknowable, why do you state that he must exist?
Latin_lover [Email], 23.05.2005, 10:40pm link
I like this. Mr. Diety-farce has an interesting set of qualities. If I read this correct (from Ffyona) he is:

1. Supernatural
2. So complex we can't unterstand (him?).
3. Not bound by our phical universe
4. Possessed of a staggering amount of energy.

...and at the same time (it) is concerned with things like:

1. Whether or not I "believe" in (it)
2. What I do with my time
3. And is apparently comsumed with things like whether or not I tell lies, buy lottery tickets, and have sex with women while they are menstrating.


That is one interesting fellow. I can see why he would be possessed with a great deal of energy - he would need it if he had nothing better to do then take time away from running the universe to monitor my day to day activities.

When you say "it's not the fact that many people believe, it's the nature of their belief. the proof i'd give you is that so many people have had religious experiences - they have found what could be seen as proof."

What is that proof of? When you say "the nature of their belief" what you mean is that as long as you agree with the belief they have, it is proof to you of your.

What if they all told you they saw dragons? I'm assuming that you probably don't believe in dragons so you would decide that belief is just "stupid". What if they maintained they had dragon experiences? Is that proof of dragons?

When people get stoned on drugs (instead of religion) and hullucinate it is no proof of what they see.

As far as whether or not there is a god, I suppose there COULD be a god. I am open-minded enough to concede that possibility. However, in the game of scientists versus the religous, the scientists have all the points.

Believe me, you could win a hell of a prize and a lot of money if you could PROVE god existed. I'd do it tomorrow if I could.

Instead, no matter how we approach it, it keeps coming up big bang and evolution. That tells us that....


There is no god. Believe in god and dragons if you like.

D
Sierra [Email], 24.05.2005, 12:51am link
Firstly, Tim, I cannot answer your question about Easter and the crucifixion any better than ffyona. I do believe in all that Christian ‘shit’ as many on this blog like to call it, and am proud of it. I would also like to point out that I will not attack you atheists like you have attacked not only my religion but muslims, hindus, Buddhists and every other religion out there…but mainly Christians with all your generalisations about all Christians are dumbarses – well mate, I just want to say, that comment made you join the Christian crowd. I also admit I have not read all the comments on this post and am sorry if I put something that has already been sead -

Secondly, to the other atheists in this crowd – I must point out to you that no matter how hard you try to deny it, you do believe in something. You believe in nothing and nothing can still be classed as something where faith is concerned. Therefore you have faith that nothing controls or created this universe and that there is no supernatural or spiritual side to this universe, I respect that but I don’t respect the fact that you don’t respect other people’s beliefs even if you think they’re wrong. There is a point to healthy discussion and many times the lines have been crossed to outright insulting (which I realise you intend) instead of discussion of opinions. Didn’t you ever do debate class in high school? If you didn’t then here is some of the lessons you still need to learn, listen to the argument, debate the argument in hand, don’t attack the other debaters personally, show respect to all, and research before you rebut an argument. It usually helps if you can provide evidence for the opponents to show your point is true.

I agree with you, there are many dumbass Christians out there but believe me there are also dumbass atheists and arseholes that have the time to swear and curse and insult other religions. I don’t usually swear but I’m coming down to this level to communicate with you. I also agree with you that Christians who sit by and quote bible verses and say ‘I’ll pray for you’ are also annoying and don’t do anything when it comes to viable discussion. What I want to point out to you is that you’re doing the equal opposite when it comes to spewing profanities and ‘there is no God’ and insulting people when they are trying to show their opinions.

Another thing I don’t agree with is that you want us Christians to prove everything to you when you can’t be arsed to prove anything for us because either a) you can’t or b)you’re still searching and searching and searching…

Thirdly, to the Christians – Please don’t keep putting up things like, ‘you do believe and you know it’, ‘find the inner peace’. You sound like a hypnotist and you aren’t proving anything other than what is being said against us. If you can find some proof use it but don’t go quoting the bible unless it can be put in true terms otherwise you are using a book that has no viable truth to an atheist point of view.

Lastly, I have faith that the Christian God exists. I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Resurrection and the Life and I believe the Bible is the word of God - all the jazz that you don’t care about. I have seen enough evidence with active demonic presence, sorcery and witchcraft and the power that prayer has over these things to show that God does exist and He has power over all things. This is my faith. Your faith is that nothing exists, all that I have seen is bullshit and all the effects I have seen have been my imagination. I am not going to try and prove to you what I have seen, I’m afraid I didn’t video the display that prayer had over a demon holding one of my mates - I was too busy praying as I was scared out of my mind. I can’t be arsed arguing over this with you all just because you are all too focused in your faith that you feel you can degrade what I believe. When you begin to respect me and my beliefs, I’ll begin to respect yours. If you can’t respect that, shut up, piss off and get a job because you obviously have got way too much time on your hands.

-a righteously angry Christian named Phil D-
filling in , 25.05.2005, 1:23pm link
Phil - "nothing can still be classed as something where faith is concerned" - that's bullshit.
The fact that I don't believe in god(s) doesn't mean that I "believe" there is no God - I find the whole concept of gods logically impossible and, therefore, strongly suspect there is no god. Belief has nothing to do with it. The fact that I don't believe in Father Christmas doesn't mean that I "believe that Father Christmas isn't real".
As for your other points, well, I think I've answered them all in the post entitled "some basics", which gives some defenitions and justification for this site -
http://www.religionisbullshit.net/2005/03/some-basics.php

As for having "too much time on my hands" - this site took a while to set up months ago (which I enjoyed doing - writing websites is a hobby, I have several) but I only actually post on this site once every few weeks.
Tim [Home], 25.05.2005, 3:34pm link
Phil, would you mind clearing up this little contradiction-

(Line 1 Paragraph 2) "I must point out to you that no matter how hard you try to deny it, you do believe in something."

(Line 1 Paragraph 5) "Thirdly, to the Christians – Please don’t keep putting up things like, ‘you do believe and you know it’,".
Latin_lover [Email], 25.05.2005, 3:55pm link
latin lover - phil was referring to christians who use the tactic of telling atheists that they already believe in the hope that they'll suddenly change their minds.
the first statement was about atheists having a belief that there is no god. a belief is an opinion, it's how you view the world and you believe it to be true. you believe that your opinion is correct, therefore it's a belief. i believe that fish doesn't taste good when i eat it.

"What is that proof of? When you say "the nature of their belief" what you mean is that as long as you agree with the belief they have, it is proof to you of your."

no i don't mean that. i'm getting tired of words being put in my mouth. if millions of people the world over told me they had seen, experienced and felt the presence of dragons, i would see that as some proof towards the existence of dragons. if i were to then experience dragons for myself, i would probably believe in dragons.

"1. Whether or not I "believe" in (it)
2. What I do with my time
3. And is apparently comsumed with things like whether or not I tell lies, buy lottery tickets, and have sex with women while they are menstrating."

hum ti tum. i think i'm repeating myself. i'm not talking about a christian god. i'm merely stating that a universal creator (regardless of how you interpret him/her/it) cannot be disproved.
a universal creator who may or may not give a damn what you do with your time, depending on what you believe about them.

reconciling god's vast unknowability (yes, i made that word up) with my belief that we can have a personal relationship with him is a COMPLETELY different argument. i am NOT talking about christian-god. i'm talking about A god.

"As far as whether or not there is a god, I suppose there COULD be a god. I am open-minded enough to concede that possibility."

open-minded? when you start a website purely to voice your hatred of religious belief? when you end every single post with 'there is no god'?

thank you for conceding that there COULD be a god. that was the only point i wanted to make. i don't expect you to believe in god, any god, my god, just that you might be slightly more open-minded.

you don't have to be, it's your perogative.

this has been interesting, but i get the feeling we could go in circles for ever.

keep on believing whatever you do or don't believe, i wish you the best.

ffyona xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 25.05.2005, 10:45pm link
Why are you so convinced that your god is "unknowable"?

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 26.05.2005, 7:25pm link
never mind it, i'm not going to repeat myself, you're clearly either not listening or just don't care what i'm saying so let's call it a day.

ffyona xxx
ffyona [Email][Home], 26.05.2005, 8:20pm link
I just don't understand why, if I could actually locate him, you feel that whatever "it" was would be completely beyond our power of understanding.

I'm pretty smart and there are many who are smarter.

There is no god.

D
Sierra [Email], 27.05.2005, 12:31am link
good for you ffyona. i woudn't mind to terribly much if there was a "god" but i wouldn't bow to it. especially if it was the christian god.
CJ , 30.05.2005, 6:19am link
Jesus Christ: a false demigod who met his fate by being nailed to two pieces of wood. A rather appropriate ending for a carpenter, don't you think?
PA , 04.06.2005, 1:50am link
yes.. a very fine fate...then again, he brought it upon himself.

it took six days for god to make the world. instead of continuing ont he seventh, god took out a joint and decided to amke men, fucked up, and passed out. that sums up christianity
CJ , 17.06.2005, 5:49am link
I know one thing, I'll bet the so called Son of God would not come back down again for a pension, second coming or no second coming, all he did last time was kick up a shit storm which is still going on by the way, had the shit beaten out of him and we're told got nailed to some wood, I'm suprised him and his dad are still on speaking terms.
Stevo , 30.06.2005, 4:44am link
first I dont wont to argue religian there is no purpose in that. I can only say that if you were raise in a loving home full of faith, it would be less hard for you all. I really never question why but I have done some reserch for myself as I got old because I came across so many people like yourselves that had no understanding to how be became to be in this world. Ive always said that the best gift my parents ever gave me was the gift of faith. I realize there are many un answer questions and there are so many that would rather argue then to reserch in place of understanding. As a child I was told God gave us a life and he gave us our free wills to beleive or not to beleive it our choose. He does not interfer with us. Only if we ask him to and sometimes we ask for things that are not good for us. If you were a parent and your children asked you for a knife and you knew it would hurt him would you give it to him or not? The real question is why does God allow so much blood shed in the world what kind of God is this. Well lets put it this why. God does not give blood shed and pain we have a free will and we are human and humans have always gone away from Gods protection. If we were to lesson to him this world would have no blood shed to any of us. But parents are not giving the ten commanments to there children and they are not seaching for the truth to change the gift that God has given to us this beautiful world and the good things in it. We are no better then Adam and Eve we are the same today as they were then. He told them not to eat the apple from the tree. and they did and we do today. So they brought suffering to us all and we bring suffering to ourselves today. God we bless the parents who search and search
to get answers. Gods rules are no different then being a good parent. Then, Ten commenments and generational blessings to those who teach there kids to love and respect his world that we are given. Those parents who raise there children without searching faith because they were not given it themselves are not handing down blessings of God. They are handing confussion, anger at those who try to change life by there faith in helping other seach true anwsers. Which one of you have ask God with Love who he is and what He wants from us and waited for an answer from a book, or a person God send to you. Or have you search in place that really count. Or have you been anger a christains for the so called belief in God. God does not work in a closed heart and you will never know him with your ways. It is not real compasion in which you ask these questions so you will be the next generation of your choice and your children will not be bless with blessing to follow and you will only see suffering as a curse to life when in fact God has nothing to do with it. He sends love and works only through love. And those who are victims of war, and suffering are sent to him and he is happy to see them and has a place far greater then this life. So dont worry about them they erred heaven with there blood shed.which was because of this world full of the ways away from God. I can't anwser all of your questions but I am so glad that I have found of Friendship with my maker, and peace in my heart for those who stay confused and anger and never find the true meaning of this life given to us as a challenge from God. This world is short and not much to offer for eternity and I am thankful of the gift my parents gave me and I give to my children.I pray for you all that you will take the anger and find God for yourselves in a loving way and ask him to answer your questions and wait for anwsers and you will find him if you are open to his gift to you.
AnnMrie [Email], 13.07.2005, 2:33pm link
RELIGION'

I think we should talk over together the problem of religion. Many people do not like that word, they think it is rather old fashioned and has very little meaning in this modern world. And there are those who are religious at the weekend; they turn out well dressed on Sunday morning and do all the mischief they can during the week. But when we use the word `religion' we are not in any way concerned with organized religions, churches, dogmas, rituals, or the authority of saviours, representatives of God and all the rest. We are talking about something quite different.
Human beings, in the past, as in the present, have always asked if there is something transcendental, much more real than the everyday existence with all its tiresome routine, its violence, despairs and sorrow. But not being able to find it, they have worshipped a symbol, giving it great significance.
To find out if there is something really true and sacred I am using that word rather hesitantly - we must look for something not put together by desire and hope, by fear and longing; not dependent on environment, culture and education, but something that thought has never touched, something that is totally and incomprehensibly new. Perhaps this morning we can spend some time in enquiring into this, trying to find out whether there is a vastness, an ecstasy, a life that is unquenchable; without finding that, however virtuous, however orderly, however non-violent one is, life in itself has very little meaning. Religion in the sense in which we are using that word, where there is no kind of fear or belief - is the quality that makes for a life in which there is no fragmentation whatsoever. If we are going to enquire into that, we must not only be free of all belief, but also we must be very clear about the distorting factor of all effort, direction and purpose. Do see the importance of this; if you are at all serious in this matter it is very important to understand how any form of effort distorts direct perception. And any form of suppression obviously also distorts, as does any form of direction born of choice, of established purpose, created by one's own desire; all these things make the mind utterly incapable of seeing things as they are.
When we are enquiring into this question of what truth is, whether there is such a thing as enlightenment, if there is something that is not of time at all, a reality that is not dependent on one's own demand, there must be freedom, and a certain quality of order. We generally associate order with discipline, discipline being conformity, imitation, adjustment, suppression and so on; forcing the mind to follow a certain course, a pattern that it considers to be moral. But order has nothing whatsoever to do with such discipline; order comes about naturally and inevitably when we understand all the disturbing factors, the disorders and conflicts going on both within ourselves and outwardly. When we are aware of this disorder, look at all the mischief, the hate, the pursuit of comparison - when we understand it then there comes order; which has nothing whatsoever to do with discipline. You must have order; after all, order is virtue (you may not like that word). Virtue is not something to be cultivated; if it is a thing of thought, of will, the result of suppression, it is no longer virtue. But if you understand the disorder of your life, the confusion, the utter meaninglessness of our existence, when you see all that very clearly, not merely intellectually and verbally, but not condemning it, not running away from it, but observing it in life, then out of that awareness and observation comes order, naturally which is virtue. This virtue is entirely different from the virtue of society, with its respectability, the sanctions of the religions with their hypocrisy; it is entirely different from one's own self-imposed discipline.
Order must exist if we are to find out if there is or is not - a reality that is not of time, something incorruptible, not depending on anything. If you are really serious about this, in the sense that it is a part of life as important as earning one's livelihood, as seeking pleasure, that it is something tremendously vital, then you will realize that it can only be found through meditation. The dictionary meaning of that word is to ponder over, to think over, to enquire; it means to have a mind that is capable of looking, that is intelligent, that is sane, not perverted or neurotic, not wishing for something from somewhere.
Is there any method, any system, any path which you can pursue and come to the understanding of what meditation, or the perception of reality, is? Unfortunately people come from the East with their systems, methods and so on; they say `Do this' and `Don't do that'. `Practice Zen and you will find enlightenment.' Some of you may have gone to India or Japan and spent years studying, disciplining yourself, trying to become aware of your toe or your nose, practising endlessly. Or you may have repeated certain words in order to calm the mind, so that in that calmness there will be the perception of something beyond thought. These tricks can be practised by a very stupid, dull mind. I am using the word stupid in the sense of a mind that is stupefied. A stupefied mind can practise any of these tricks. You may not be interested in all this, but you have to find out. After you have listened very carefully you may go out into the world and teach people, that may be your vocation and I hope it is. You have to know the whole substance, the meaning, the fullness, the beauty, the ecstasy of all this.
A dull mind, a mind that has been stupefied by `practising', cannot under any circumstances whatsoever understand what reality is. One must be completely, totally, free of thought. One needs a mind that is not distorted, that is very clear, that is not blunted, that is no longer pursuing a direction, a purpose. You will ask: `Is it possible to have this state of mind in which there is no experiencing?' To `experience' implies an entity who is experiencing; therefore, there is duality: the experiencer and the thing experienced. the observer and the thing observed. Most of us want some kind of deep, marvellous and mystical experience; our own daily experiences are so trivial, so banal, so superficial, we want something electrifying. In that bizarre thought of a marvellous experience, there is this duality of the experiencer and the experience. As long as this duality exists there must be distortion; because the experiencer is the accumulated past with all his knowledge, his memories. Being dissatisfied with that, he wants something much greater, therefore he projects it as idea, and finds that projection; in that there is still duality and distortion.
Truth is not something to be experienced. Truth is not something that you can seek out and find. It is beyond time. And thought, which is of time, cannot possibly search it out and grasp it. So one must understand very deeply this question of wanting experience. Do please see this tremendously important a thing. Any form of effort, of wanting, of seeking out truth, demanding experience, is the observer wanting something transcendental and making effort; therefore the mind is not clear, pristine, non-mechanical. A mind seeking an experience, however marvellous, implies that the `me' is seeking it - the `me' which is the past, with all its frustrations, miseries and hopes.
Observe for yourself how the brain operates. It is the storehouse of memory, of the past. This memory is responding all the time, as like and dislike, justifying, condemning and so on; it is responding according; to its conditioning, according to the culture, religion, education, which it has stored. That storehouse of memory, from which thought arises, guides most of our life. It is directing and shaping our lives every minute of every day, consciously or unconsciously; it is generating thought, the `me', which is the very essence of thought and words. Can that brain, with its content of the old, be completely quiet - only wakened when it is necessary to operate, to function, to speak, to act, but the rest of the time completely sterile?
Meditation is to find out whether the brain, with all its activities, all its experiences, can be absolutely quiet. Not forced, because the moment you force, there again is duality, the entity that says, `I would like to have marvellous experiences, therefore I must force my brain to be quiet' - you will never do it. But if you begin to enquire, watch, observe, listen to all the movements of thought, its conditioning, its pursuits, its fears, its pleasures, watch how the brain operates, then you will see that the brain becomes extraordinarily quiet; that quietness is not sleep but is tremendously active and therefore quiet. A big dynamo that is working perfectly, hardly makes a sound; it is only when there is friction that there is noise.
One has to find out whether one's body can sit or lie completely still, without any movement, not forced. Can the body and the brain be still? - for they are interrelated psychosomatically. There are various practices to make the body still, but again they imply suppression; the body wants to get up and walk, you insist that it must sit quietly, and the battle begins - wanting to go out and wanting to sit still.
The word `yoga' means `to join together'. The very words `join together' are wrong, they imply duality. Probably yoga as a particular series of exercises and breathing was invented in India many thousands of years ago. Its intent is to keep the glands, the nerves and the whole system functioning healthily, without medicine, and highly sensitive. The body needs to be sensitive, otherwise you cannot have a clear brain. You can see the simple fact, that one needs to have a very healthy, sensitive, alert body, and a brain that functions very clearly, non-emotionally, not personally; such a brain can be absolutely quiet. Now, how is this to be brought about? How can the brain, which is so tremendously active - not only during the day-time, but when you go to sleep - be so completely relaxed and completely quiet? Obviously no method will do it, a method implies mech- anical repetition, which stupefies and makes the brain dull; and in that dullness you think you have marvellous experiences!
How can the brain, which is always chattering to itself, or with others, always judging, evaluating, liking and disliking, turning over all the time - how can that brain be completely still? Do you, for yourself, see the extraordinary importance that the brain should be completely quiet? For the moment it acts it is response of the past, in terms of thought. It is only a brain that is completely still that can observe a cloud, a tree, a flowing river. You can see the extraordinary light on those mountains, yet the brain can be completely still you have noticed this, have you not? How has that happened? The mind, facing something of extraordinary magnitude, like very complex machinery, a marvellous computer, or a magnificent sunset, becomes completely quiet even if only for a split second. You have noticed when you give a child a toy, how the toy absorbs the child, the child is so concerned with it. In the same way, by their greatness, the mountains, the beauty of a tree, the flowing waters, absorb the mind and make it still. But in that case the brain is made still by something. Can the brain be quiet without an outside factor entering into it? Not `finding a way'. people hope for the Grace of God, they pray, have faith, become absorbed in Jesus, in this or in that. We see that this absorption by something outside occurs to a dull, a stupefied mind. The brain is active from the moment you wake up until you go to sleep; and even then the activity of the brain is still going on. That activity in the form of dreams is the same movement of the day carried on during sleep. The brain has never a moment's rest, never does it say, `I have finished'. It has carried over the problems which it accumulated during the day into sleep; when you wake up those problems still go on - it is a vicious circle. A brain that is to be quiet must have no dreams at all; when the brain is quiet during sleep there is a totally different quality entering into the mind. How does it happen that the brain which is so tremendously, enthusiastically active, can naturally, easily, be quiet without any effort or suppression? I will show it to you.
As we said, during the day it is endlessly active. You wake up, you look out of the window and say to yourself, `Oh, awful rain', or`It is a marvellous day, but too hot' you have started! So at that moment, when you look out of the window, don't say a word; not suppressing words but simply realizing that by saying, `What a lovely morning', or `A horrible day', the brain has started. But if you watch, looking out of the window and not saying a word to yourself - which does not mean you suppress the word just observing without the activity of the brain rushing in, there you have the clue, there you have the key. When the old brain does not respond, there is a quality of the new brain coming into being. You can observe the mountains, the river, the valleys, the shadows, the lovely trees and the marvellous clouds full of light beyond the mountains you can look without a word, without comparing.
But it becomes much more difficult when you look at another person; there already you have established images. But just to observe! You will see when you so observe, when you see clearly, that action becomes extraordinarily vital; it becomes a complete action which is not carried over to the next minute. You understand?
One has problems, deep or superficial, not sleeping well, quarrelling with one's wife, and one carries these problems on from day to day. Dreams are the repetition of these problems, the repetition of fear and pleasure over and over again. That obviously stupefies the mind and makes the brain dull. Now is it possible to end each problem as it arises? - not carrying it over. Take j problem: somebody has insulted me, told me I am a fool; at that moment the old brain responds instantly, saying `So are you'. If, before the brain responds, I am completely aware of what has been said something unpleasant - I have an interval, a gap, so that the brain does not immediately jump into the battle. So if you watch the movement of thought in action during the day, you realize that it is breeding problems, and that problems are things which are incomplete, which have to e carried over. But if you watch with a brain that is fairly quiet, en you will see that action becomes complete, instantaneous; there is no carrying over of a problem, no carrying over of the insult or the praise - it is finished. Then, during sleep, the brain no longer carrying on the old activities of the day, it has complete rest. And as the brain is quiet in sleep, there takes place a rejuvenation of its whole structure. A quality of innocency comes into being - and the innocent mind can see what is true; not the complicated mind, not that of the philosopher, or the priest.
The innocent mind implies that whole in which are the body, the heart, the brain and the mind. This innocent mind which is never touched by thought, can see what truth is, what reality is, it can see if there is something beyond measure. That is meditation. To come upon this extraordinary beauty of truth, with its ecstasy, you must lay the foundations. The foundation is the understanding of thought, which breeds fear and sustains pleasure, and the understanding of order and therefore virtue; so that there is freedom from all conflict, aggression, brutality and violence. Once one has laid this foundation of freedom, there is a sensitivity which is supreme intelligence, and the whole of the life one leads becomes entirely different.

Can thought understand anything NEW & Truth
S.V.Dharmaraj [Email], 16.07.2005, 6:48am link
holy poop, you wrote a lot! i'll have to read it someday, my mind went fuzzy after the first three lines :|
CJ , 17.07.2005, 3:47am link
the reason god had to send jesus was so he wouldn't be braking his promise to punish us also how would you feel if you thought that the wrong things hat cristians do were just forgiven like that plus god is rightfull angry at us he needs to punish us or show that we are bad we needto learn from the things we do wrong
E , 18.07.2005, 10:39pm link
why all the anger everyone ? whats with all this swearing an cussing ?
joe [Email], 09.09.2005, 3:49pm link

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