Archived blog post

An Announcement

Posted by Ben on Thursday, October 13, 2005 | Permalink
 

All present must visit this website immediately - no time to explain. Go!

via Pharyngula

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Hmm. Big Hmm. Somewhat amusing site I suppose.. not something I'd get excited about, to be honest.
Some One, 13.10.2005, 7:28pm #
on the arguments against atheism http://www.iamanatheist.com/arguments.html

the "You can't prove God doesn't exist." question is a common one. ok i cant prove god dosent exist, but you cant prove he does exist either. so get down off your high chair and come sit on the ground with me.
the truth, 14.10.2005, 10:37am #
Somewhere else everyone should go:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7036
Utter brilliance.
(It's an anagram, incase you don't work it out)
Tim, 15.10.2005, 12:29am #
"You can't prove ... doesn't exist" is a logical fallacy anyway. It is always impossible to prove non-existence, since absense of evidence is not evidence of absence. Whereas pointing out that not only is there no real evidence for any supernatural being certainly no proof is quite sufficient justification for not accepting the existence of such a being.
Some One, 15.10.2005, 3:33pm #
has anyone ever read the bible. how do you think the miracle of birth happens , the trees and ocean. It makes me sad that people dont' believe the truth and believe that science did this. I am so thankful when Iwas 12 years old the lord saved my soul in little country babtist church and I know the truth. I would hate to die and go to hell and burn in eternity because I denied god. god is love and the truth! Read the bible, King james version. old or new test. see what you think then decide. Iwish everyone knew the truth. I am afraid that if people don't quit denieying god the end of time is near. God was hear first before anything, there were god and godesses and giants and such , the fallen angel lucifer was jealous so god casted him in hell, then god made a plan , jeasus the son of mary and those who trusted and loved the lord and not wickness that would have faith to be saved, jeasus died for us so we would have our chance to heaven. He was cruicifed and suffered horrible death but rose 3 days later to be with god, satan is real also and tries to deceive people with lies and is very good at it. there is a spirtual battle exsisting right now , good against evil, evil is called good and good is called evil that is why is so important to know god and his love so when your death comes or judgement day comes you can be a born again christian and know the truth and have your chance to live in heaven. One of these days due to the unbelievers and wickness in the world which already exist today the end of time will come and those that didnt' believe will remain here on this earth which will be hell and suffer and those that loved god and did good and believed that he is the one to believe in , the truth will live in heaven. Imagine touching the stove burner while hot and imagine because of stupidity and pride you chose not to love but to be ignorant in your non religion ways , why chose that over feeling love in your heart and peace and fullfillment. why take the chance. god is real and i know that , please read your bibles and the answers are there for you. you can find a bible just about anywhere, what is it going to hurt to look it over, you might be surprised and be so glad you did. Kings james version. read st. matthew, relavation if you want to know what hell will be like. hebrew 13: God bless everyone! Not preaching just want you to know the truth!!!
dee, 01.11.2005, 7:09am #
rofl, i love that "you are an atheist!"

thanks for the news flash XD
shaggy, 02.11.2005, 12:41am #
Some one (pun left) really ought to explain to the poor dear that her birth wasn't a miracle and is pretty basic biology. I wish "the lord" would show her the truth of punctuation, spelling and grammar too.
Some One, 05.11.2005, 7:17pm #
What is basic Biology? Your explanation is like me telling you that the remote control that turns on your TV works because it's controlled by you and you telling me that I am wrong; that the fact that the remote control turns on your TV is basic Physics. While you would be correct in saying that it's basic Physics, it would be a fallacy to say that the remote control works merely because it's basic Physics and you (the controller) do not exit.

Basic Biology is not so basic if you consider how it came to be. Basic Biology is not so basic if you venture into explaining why birth is possible. Not merely how it happens, not merely it's biologically explanation but how it's possible. I am not interested in you telling me what you read in your Biology book. I read it too. I am interested in why birth is. Just like I would not be interested (using the remote control example) in you telling me that the remote control turns on the TV because the remote control sends out an electrical signal to the TV, thus turning it on. I am not interested in what your read in your Physics book, which only explains what these signals do. But I am interested in how these signals came to be and who made them. God said he made all things. I believe Him because there can be no other explanation. My understanding of Biology is that it explains, just like any other Science, how pre-existing things work. Biology, just like any other Science, cannot create or destroy; it merely explains, some times manipulates and on rare occasions alters existing entities but it can never create.

It is evident that every discovery ever made and every idea ever imagined was only brought to light; it was not conceived or created but it was already there. How then, if God does not exist, can an atheist think that he can prove the non-existence of a God that does not exit. You cannot prove the non-existence of a non-existing entity. Therefore, the fact that an atheist can challenge, question, and formulate arguments against the existence of God is sufficient evidences to prove that God exists. Prove me wrong. Conceive a non-existence idea or entity. Then prove yourself wrong. That is, and then prove that it does not exit. At the end you will find that conceiving such an idea or entity will only be bringing it to light not into existence. Then, your are faced with the task of proving that it does not exit.

In you understanding who or what creates? Remember, I not looking for explanations on how things work but whom or what creates?
Axis, 15.11.2005, 6:45am #
My Inaugural Address at the Great White Throne Judgment of the Dead, after I have raptured out billions!.

At: http://www.angelfire.com/crazy/spaceman/


eschatology,End Times,second coming,rapture,secret rapture,Second Resurrection,Great White Throne Judgment of the Dead,
End of days,Day of the Lord,Endtime,Judgment Day
Secret Rapture, 27.11.2005, 9:40am #
Axis said;"You cannot prove the non-existence of a non-existing entity."

I say I can. I'll give it a shot. Mathematically. I get to define the terms though, since it's my proof.

Let z=the non-existence, this is the result found by my equation. If it equals 0 (zero), then my proof is valid, if any other real number of ALL the INFINITE real numbers in the universe, you are deemed correct.

Let y=the evidence of 'any' god, this can be ANY real number. I'm being generous here I think. Just to sway it your way, by being the 'devil's advocate' shall we say.

Let x=non-existing entity, since you provided it 0 (zero). You stated that this MUST be used to prove the result of your statement above.

My very simple equation is this,

xy=z (x times y equals z).

Since y can be any real number that represents the evidence of any 'god', let's use, say, 666 a most meaningless number. We know that x=0 since Axis provided it.

So we have 0 * 666. Since any number multiplied by zero gives the result of zero, therefore 0 * 666= 0, the answer to my proof is 0 (zero).

Let's try changing my equation a little more in YOUR favour, perhaps EXPONENTIALLY. All the defining terms stay the same.

So my next simple equation is this,

x^y=z (x raised to the exponent y equals z).

0 ^ 666 = tada....0, again, since zero raised to any number is 0 (0 multiplied by itself 666 times is still 0).

Just for fun I'll do it again, using the same definitions as above with the following change:

Let zet z=the non-existence, this is the result found by my equation. I'll be even more generous here. If it equals ANY real number of ALL the INFINITE real numbers in the universe INCLUDING 0 (zero) than YOU are deemed correct, if SOMETHING ELSE then MY proof is valid.

So also we have:
Let y=the evidence of 'any' god, this can be any real number. ANY REAL NUMBER.

Let x=non-existing entity, since you provided it 0 (zero). You stated that this MUST be used to prove the result of your statement above.

My simple equation is this,

y/x=z (y divided x equals z).

So we substite in 0 again for x, 666 for y and we get the result = ERROR, my poor calculator doesn't seem to be able to process these simple nunbers (any real number divided by 0 equals ....UNDEFINED). Therefore a result of SOMETHING ELSE. Strike three against your worldview. Again proof that "You cannot prove the non-existence of a non-existing entity" can actually be proven. Don't be so damn sure of what's impossible to prove or not.



AA
AccursedAtheist, 28.11.2005, 7:22am #
I do like the mathematical attempt. However, what part of this equation did you conceive that had not been conceived before? Because character you used, even the equation, has been in existence.
Axis, 29.11.2005, 6:12am #
Sorry about that, I pressed the post button before I was done.

Here it is again.

I do like the mathematical attempt. However, what part of this equation did you conceive that had not been conceived before? Because every character you used, even the equation, has been in existence for a while. Moreover, your equations give the answers (0), which in your mind proves the non-existence of a non-existing antity. Last time I checked (0) is just a point of reference we use in mathematics. It does not mean it explain non-existance of anthing. As for the last example; which you give as UNDEFINED; well, Just for fun I'll use your equation:

Let y=the evidence of 'you', this can be any real number. ANY REAL NUMBER.

Let x=non-existing entity, since we are using 0 (zero).

My simple equation is this:

y/x=z (y divided x equals z).

Let x=non-existing entity, since I provided it 0 (zero).

The simple equation is this,

y/x=z (y divided x equals z).

So we substite in 0 for x, 666 for y and we get the result = ERROR, my poor calculator doesn't seem to be able to process these simple nunbers (any real number divided by 0 equals ....UNDEFINED).

So, what does this mean? Do you really not exit are you just an error?
Axis, 29.11.2005, 6:34am #
Axis said:" Moreover, your equations give the answers (0), which in your mind proves the non-existence of a non-existing antity. Last time I checked (0) is just a point of reference we use in mathematics. It does not mean it explain non-existance of anthing."

What zero means in my mind is irrelevant, it's what it means in the results of the equations I provided as proof. You said it couldn't be done. I said it could.Your attempt at new age semantics aside, when defining terms, zero can be a placeholder, but not in my example. In mathematics, the 'NUMBER' 0 means "nothing, null, void or an absence of value. For example, if the number of one's brothers is zero, then that person has no brothers." In other words the NON-EXISTANCE (or z in my equations) of a brother.

The above example of zero brothers is from the website wikipedia, at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29

The 'NUMERAL' 0 in mathematics is the placeholder, ie the numbers 10 or 1001 use the zero for this. This is the important distinction with my results. However my equations didn't come up with results that had numbers like these. Only a big fat 0.

Then you say:"So, what does this mean? Do you really not  are you just an error?"

Mathematically it means I can't be proven to exist. Or can I? An error, maybe, inconsequential (as like a 0 defined above) in the grand scheme of the universe, probably, do I care, not much really. UNDEFINED is probably closest though!

Let's play around a little more with my third equation, the divide by 0 one again.

You defined me as:"Let y=the evidence of 'you', this can be any real number. ANY REAL NUMBER." Okay. 666 again.

And :" Let x=non-existing entity, since we are using 0 (zero)." Sure.

Okay, i'll use your given x, but I'll substitute my result (an absolute equivalent for 0) in place when we use the equation. But I get to define it as a NUMBER, not a numeral. ;-)

First we'll start with an infinite progression of zeroes, like this:

Step 1. 0=0+0+0+0... and so on for infinity. Is this true? Yes

Step 2.
For the infinite succession of zeros I substitute in mathematically equivalent, in this case (666-666)
So now we have 0=(666-666)+(666-666)+(666-666)... for infinity. It still equals 0. Still True? Yes.

Step3. Using the associative law of addition and subtraction we can now move my brackets since the order of operations is unchanged. We now have this 0=666+(-666+666)+(-666+666)+(-666+666)...for ever and ever. Still true so far.

Step 4. We know that -666+666=0. So we substitute in 0 for my infinite sets of these above to give us  till hell freezes over. Still logically true

Step 5. Since 0 added to anything, even forever, still unchanges the value it is added to, then we get 0=666. Still true. So 0=666 will be substituted validly for x=0.

Now I take this and substitute it into your x value that you provided, and we get the following equation:

y/x=z (y divided by x equals z).

666/x=z using my value of y
666/666=z using my equivalent value of zero (Given in 5 easy steps above)
666/666=1

Therefore at least one of me exists. I think. Simple equations sometimes aren't simple.


AA
AccursedAtheist, 30.11.2005, 6:49am #
Axis -

AA's mathematical high jinks seem a bit irrelevant to what you said (I for one don't accept that infinity is in any sense real and so I believe it can't be used to prove anything).

I would prefer to address what you said directly.

Can you imagine that you have wings and can fly at this precise moment in time? It seems to me one can imagine yourself as a being with the power of flight and the fact that one knows one does not fly is sufficient evidence to say such a being ("Me with the power of flight") did not exist. One cannot rule out teh possibility in the future of course - but the same goes for things that exist: we might find out that whatever experience we've had was some sort of collective hallucination from which we wake at a future date.

The truth is that proving the existence of non-existence of things stands on a par, except for the fact that where things do indeed exist, then clearly the evidence gathering exercise is a lot easier.
field, 30.11.2005, 8:31am #
AA

The problems with your equations are that I can always turn them around and used them against you. I will not write it out again for you know it better than I do. However, when you wrote that equation proving that mathematically you are at least one (1), I can just as easily use that equation to show that God is one (as a matter of fact, I am glad you used that equation because there is only one God). So, I will not bore you with the equation. This is the problem we all face, believers and non-believers; we must believe or not believe. What to do??????? Why continue the discourse????

Well, for me; I know that there is very little I can do to change your minds. But I would not want you to one day stand in front of God and tell Him that I did not tell you about Him. You must never be able to stand in front of God and tell Him that you were not told. You must never be able to stand in front of God and tell Him that He was unfair. You will be without excuse.

As for you, why are you on this website? If there is no God, what does it matter? From what or who are you trying to save me? You are best of elsewhere enjoying life for that is all you have. If there is no God, what point is there to prove or accomplish by arguing with me? If there is no God, am I not the one who is wasting his time? If I stand correctly, the only thing you would save me from is myself, or you want me to live like you, without hope. I mean, if there is no God, you are the last person I would want to listen to. I would want to listen to myself. I would want only what benefits me; why would it matter if it benefits anyone else? I to would be out enjoying life.

I know that you do not hope to save me from something or to bring enlightenment to me because atheism only brings despair. What is it that you hope to bring to the table? Why Atheism? What are you fighting for? What sins do you refuse to take responsibility for?

You see, this is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men love darkness instead of light because our deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. Christ demands that we take up our cross and follow Him. Why acknowledge our sins when we can justify them? Why follow rules that we are to weak to follow? Why not just make up our own rules. You know, I read once that some will never find Jesus for the same reason a thief will never find a police officer. While I like the quote, I believe that the author forgot the most important parts of the parable. A police office will look for the thief, some are caught some are not. Some thieves do turn themselves in. There will be consequences. Some thieves do conform. Finally, when caught, some thieves will never acknowledge their wrong doings while others will. Human nature is so interesting. Acknowledging our wrong doings is the most difficult thing we can ever do. Even when we know we are caught, we continue to deny it. We rather keep our evil deeds in the darkness. Christ demands that we bring them to light and that is why so many refuse to follow Him.

Then when all else fails we attach Christianity by saying that they have done horrid things in the name of Christ and so Christ is not God (and some Christens have, but they to will be without excuse if they do not repent). Then we try to blame God for our sins by saying that if He created us then he is at fault. We also try to say that He is not all good for if so, we would not suffer. The excuses go on and on and on and on about how it's not our fault. We are evil and we do not want our deeds exposed. We are evil and we refuse to take responsibility. We are evil and we refuse to answer to anyone. But I tell you the truth, one day we will all be without excuse. Christ came to pay for our sins and to forgive us but He will not force us to accept. In human law, the honorable thing is to turn yourself in and pay for your wrong doings. In moral laws, the honorable thing is to repent. But Christ is right, men love darkness instead of light because our deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. This is the God I want to follow for He has called me out into the light. Christians are a bad representation of Christ. No Christen that ever lived or will eve live can accurately represent Christ. We all fall short of the Glory of God. The difference is, using my thief example, that we turned ourselves in and are in the process of being reformed. You continue to say that you have done nothing wrong and that there is not law; that there is no police officer or police station so why try to find one.


As a side note: You atheist do have one thing that I have; the same chance I have of getting into heave and being forgiven for all your sins. That my friends is the kind of God we have.

God Bless
Axis, 02.12.2005, 1:43am #
Axis said;"Well, for me; I know that there is very little I can do to change your minds."

Actually there is nothing you can do to change my mind. It's mine to change.


Axis said:"But I would not want you to one day stand in front of God and tell Him that I did not tell you about Him. You must never be able to stand in front of God and tell Him that you were not told. You must never be able to stand in front of God and tell Him that He was unfair. You will be without excuse."


It isn't going to happen anyhow. Why can't your imaginary all-powerful benefactor tell me himself of his existance? Seriously, why does he need human mouthpieces? Do they get a better seat on judgement day? If you live forever in the afterlife, after you do everything does that mean there follows a complete infinite eternity of boredom? At least the muslims get 72 hot virgin babes for ever. Their reward system promises a little more than yours.


Axis said:"As for you, why are you on this website? If there is no God, what does it matter? From what or who are you trying to save me? You are best of elsewhere enjoying life for that is all you have. If there is no God, what point is there to prove or accomplish by arguing with me?"


To discuss that religion (especially theistic ones) are bullsh*t. It matters because the delusion of a Santa Claus for adults (he know's if you've been good or bad, doling out the proper reward or punishment) infects the minds of all segments of society, and threatens us and our fellow living creatures existance on this small planet that contains the only life we know. Many attitudes propagated by religions that take away our responsibilities as the only sentient beings on this planet capable to protect it and its inhabatints. Religion removes us from natural world, gives us a sense of superiority, makes people denigrade others who don't follow its man-made control tenets. You can spout on and on about god does this and that, promises this and that, but in the end your beliefs or mine won't make a single difference to the continuation of the universe as a whole. But, by taking away a rational outlook on life and reality as a basis to determine what we do, and absolve yourself of all responsibility, the ramifications of those religious beliefs leave the earth overpopulated, overpolluted, and tragically underfed in the future when the triple crisis of climate change, biocide and finite resource depletion kicks in within a couple of decades. Of course all religions will pray to their gods to make it all better, wars will be fought (like always), and the enlightenment humanity gained might be all for naught. But if attitudes change, and WE do the hard work and change the world, instead of HOPING for an imaginary being doing it, then this planet's inhabitants may have a chance. That's why IT matters. And I just enjoy arguing with delusional people who believe that imaginary beings control every aspect of their existance. I'm strange that way.

Axis said:"I mean, if there is no God, you are the last person I would want to listen to."


What do you mean IF there is no god? Are you saying that there is an imaginary being that you listen to? I don't know if you can grasp the concept but, many people on this planet don't and/or can't IMAGINE these beings, I'm one. I've noticed there are others on this site too.


Axis said:"I know that you do not hope to save me from something or to bring enlightenment to me because atheism only brings despair. What is it that you hope to bring to the table? Why Atheism? What are you fighting for? What sins do you refuse to take responsibility for?"


I bring cold hard reality to the table. That's all there is to work with. Despair is part of reality. Denial of reality, such as religious beliefs, is not. Atheism is the result of reality. Sins, as you call them, or as I call them religious behavioural conduct mechinisms - I don't use them as my moral compass. However, I take responsibility for all my actions, I did them, I don't need somebody else looking after me. Call that pride if you want, so what. That doesn't mean I don't regret some of the actions I took, but that's life.

The rest of your christianity rant especially the second last self-victimising paragraph pretty much convinces me that there isn't much hope though.

Gawd-less!
AA
AccursedAtheist, 02.12.2005, 7:05am #
AccursedAtheists said, €œActually there is nothing you can do to change my mind. It's mine to change.

No argument there. It is yours to change.


AccursedAtheist said €œWhy can't your imaginary all-powerful benefactor tell me himself of his existence? Seriously, why does he need human mouthpieces? Do they get a better seat on judgment day?

He did, His name is Jesus. But interesting enough, all those who expected a God to cater to their needs only, crucified Him. The problem with all who say that God would have to appear to them is that even if He did, they would find an excuse or a justification for what happened or what they saw. You see, you are right; it's your mind to change. And God, because he wants your AGAPE, He is not going to make you love Him, He wants you to love Him out of you own free will. And no, we don't get better seats at judgment day. Remember it's not football game, it'sjudgment day. I don't believe God or anyone who is saved is going to be telling those who are not saved, €œSee, I told you so! I believe it'sgoing to be a sad day(s).


AccursedAtheist said, €œIf you live forever in the afterlife, after you do everything does that mean there follow a complete infinite eternity of boredom? At least the Muslims get 72 hot virgin babes for ever. Their reward system promises a little more than yours.

No boredom. 1 €œI tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:11-15 "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." 22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Luke 17:20-22 18Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches." 20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." Luke 13:18-21


You are right, the reward system of Muslims is more appealing, but only here on earth, and for those who are out to please themselves. You see, following Jesus on earth is more then that. "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. Luke 9:23-28 27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Luke 6:27-35


AccursedAtheist said, €œReligion removes us from natural world, gives us a sense of superiority, makes people denigrade others who don't follow its man-made control tenets. You can spout on and on about god does this and that, promises this and that, but in the end your beliefs or mine won't make a single difference to the continuation of the universe as a whole. But, by taking away a rational outlook on life and reality as a basis to determine what we do, and absolve yourself of all responsibility

If any Christian ever believes to be superior to you or me, he must be told to read his Bible. Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." Mark 9:35. God does not ever even get close to saying that we have no responsibility. As a matter of fact, He said, €œIf anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and This, my friend, not only calls us to accept responsibility for our physical actions but also mental and emotional. He calls us to face the music at all levels, including those we disagree. If you believe that Christianity is about shifting responsibility to God, you obviously do't understand Christ. Remember, Christ came to speak the truth; not just the truths that you and I wanted to hear.
AccursedAtheist said, the ramifications of those religious beliefs leave the earth overpopulated, overpolluted, and tragically underfed in the future when the triple crisis of climate change, biocide and finite resource depletion kicks in within a couple of decades. Of course all religions will pray to their gods to make it all better, wars will be fought (like always), and the enlightenment humanity gained might be all for naught 10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. 12But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life. 20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." Luke 21:10-28
As you can see the Bible, via the word of Jesus, says that these things must happen. Jesus is a God that came to speak the truth; the good and the bad, not just to please a few selfish beings who want a god that fits their idea.
AccursedAtheist said, €œBut if attitudes change, and WE do the hard work and change the world, instead of HOPING for an imaginary being doing it, then this planet's inhabitants may have a chance. That's why IT matters Yes, God does ask us to pray and so we do. As for you ideas about changing attitudes; here we are on the same page. We do need to change the world. Christ said that we are the body of Christ, and to love one another, to serve one another. You are right, Hope alone does not do it, actions do. God never told us to just Hope. God never told us to just pray. He told us to pray so that we may do the right things, to hope that we would do the right things. God calls for a lot of actions but He calls for those actions to be righteous, loving, compassionate, and wise and so we pray for those things and hope we get them.

AccursedAtheist said, €œAnd I just enjoy arguing with delusional people who believe that imaginary beings control every aspect of their existence. I'm strange that way.

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strengt 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thing and the things that are notto nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him."[

AccursedAtheist said, “What do you mean IF there is no god? Are you saying that there is an imaginary being that you listen to? I don't know if you can grasp the concept but, many people on this planet don't and/or can't IMAGINE these beings, I'm one. I've noticed there are others on this site too.

No imaginary beings would ever say such profound things as:

€œ3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are you when people insult you. If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. I am Love. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. Love one another. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Jesus did not just say, I peak the truth; He said, €œI am the Truth. He did not just say I created life; he said, €œI am the Life. He did not just say I'll show you the way; He said, €œI am the way. Our Lord Jesus did not come merely to give bread; He said, "I am the Bread." He did not come merely to shed light; He said, "I am the Light." He did not come merely to show the door; He said, "I am the Door." He did not come merely to name a shepherd; He said, "I am the Shepherd." Our Lord Jesus did not merely say Let there be He said, I am.

AccursedAtheist said, €œI bring cold hard reality to the table. That's all there is to work with. Despair is part of reality. Denial of reality, such as religious beliefs, is not. Atheism is the result of reality. Sins, as you call them, or as I call them religious behavioural conduct mechinisms - I don't use them as my moral compass. However, I take responsibility for all my actions, I did them, I don't need somebody else looking after me. Call that pride if you want, so what. That doesn't mean I don't regret some of the actions I took, but that's life

Here are some cold hard facts: €œThere will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God 5having a form of godliness but denying its power 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth

AccursedAtheist said, €œThe rest of your christianity rant especially the second last self-victimising paragraph pretty much convinces me that there isn't much hope though.

Yes, most people have problems with such things. But again, Jesus did not come just to tell you want you want to hear. He came to speak the truth. God will not do what you or I think is best. He will do what is best. Jesus did not come to fulfill our will but to fulfill God's will.

Amuse me for a moment and assume that there is a God. Would he be much of a god if he pleased just one person; if he was just the god that one person wanted him to be? Would he be much of a god if he was the god that you want or would like him to be? Or would God be God, bound by no human interpretation. Would He not be in the right to defined Himself or to be self-defined? Would God have to answer to its creation? Would its creation know more than its Creator? Would its creation have a better plan? Would its creation out-smart its Creator? Would its creation know its purse better than its Creator?

And God said,
€œ3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]
or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Sorry for the long notes.
God Bless you all  See you in Heaven.
Axis, 02.12.2005, 11:38pm #
Axis said:"No imaginary beings would ever say such profound things as:" ...(deleted bible verses for the sake of shortening reply).

You're right Axis. NO IMAGINARY beings wrote any of the words in the bible. It's all written by human beings. Some of it's good, morally-sound advice ie. love thy neighbour, some of it's cruel and unjust and immoral ie. Lot and his daughters, and some of it's absurd, ie. talking snakes and donkeys - my 'ass'. No different than much of mythologically themed literature. Of course the bible states throughout that it is not the word of men, but that of god, and therefore perfect, despite its glaring contradictions to an unbiased observer. And sure a true believer will say you can't read it unbiasedly, it can only be understood if you read it with an open mind using god's wisdom to help you. Nice circular reasoning but I say to the believers, doesn't unbiased mean 'open minded'? If it was perfect, wouldn't it have no contradictions? Like I asked before "Seriously, why does he (god) need human mouthpieces?. I'll tell you why, because he doesn't exist. Of course you might rationalize that it all might be part of his plan, and I don't need to know how it works. God knows best, you could say, some questions are best left alone, since only he could understand it.

Axis said:"You are right, the reward system of Muslims is more appealing, but only here on earth, and for those who are out to please themselves."

Why is your belief system any more better than the Muslim one? You probably don't believe that their prophet Mohammed was sitting at home when suddenly in a flash of bright light, an angel appeared, calling him the messenger of god, and for 23 years the angel, Gabriel, revealed the word of god (again the human mouthpiece is needed) to be written down for everyone to believe. This book still survives today, it's called the quran. Many believers of this sacred book of god's perfect revealed word spoken to his chosen messenger can't understand how we non-believers couldn't possibly believe this is what god wants, I mean for godsakes they say it's all right there in black ink on white paper(originally in god's language Arabic, but conviently packaged in English too!). If they don't believe it unquestionly, they will go to hell. Surely they say it must be true. And yet over 4 billion people in this world don't believe it is the word of god. I'm sure you're one. As am I. You might even think these people who believe this so-called sacred book of revealed messages of god are delusional, crazy even, and probably wrong. Especially when it's known that this messenger was a former thief and criminal, would be considered a pedeaophile in my society (he had a 9 year-old girl as a wife), and maybe suffered from some type of brain trauma (the bright lights appear to be a common god message medium - similar to the aura that some epiliptics report around the time of seizures and voices ie angels telling him what to do and write - I'd be sure the psychiatric community has a word just for that). If you don't believe in the Muslim belief system just as I don't, now you see how an atheist like myself sees your belief. I just believe in one god less than you.

Also notice how some god somewhere seems to be able to create a whole world, yet can't write a book himself. Maybe he's just to tired what with all the smotings and drownings and sexual conduct codes and such. Then when he finally gets somebody to write it down for him, it's not in anything but the local language of his scribes. And it just happens to contain only information that is remarkably similar to their local customs and geography too. Hmmmm. No wonder the bible has verse like the one you provided; "For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Or one of my favourites " Only a fool says there is no god". God's mouthpieces wouldn't want anyone wising up to their con game now would they?


AA

PS. I love this site:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_flood/gn06_18-19.html
AccursedAtheist, 04.12.2005, 8:01am #
[EDIT: copied stuff with no link]
This is all fine and dandy. However, if you are to believe and accept all the prophets, which one, according to the Quran, is Jesus, there is a small problem. You see, all the rest of the prophets, including Muhammad, never claimed to be God. Jesus, on the other hand said, '€œI am.John's Gospel tells us that the Word is God and that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Therefore, fundamentally, our Lord's message was Himself. He did not come merely to preach a Gospel; He himself is that Gospel. He did not just say I created life; he said, '€œI am the Life.' He did not just say I'll show you the way; He said, '€œI am the way.' Our Lord Jesus did not come merely to give bread; He said, "I am the Bread." He did not come merely to shed light; He said, "I am the Light." He did not come merely to show the door; He said, "I am the Door." He did not come merely to name a shepherd; He said, "I am the Shepherd." Our Lord Jesus did not merely say '€œLet there be'  He said, €œI am

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:20 €œOn that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
John 14:10 €œDon't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work
Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who was pierced?
John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
John 19:37 €œand, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
Revelation 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

So you see, Jesus proclaims to be God and that there is no other way but Him. Thus, if the Quran acknowledges Jesus and rejects his teachings, either Jesus is right and they must accept him as the Son of God or reject him altogether because He did not give us the choice of calling him a prophet. John 1:18 €œNo one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Deuteronomy 12:32
See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
[EDIT: copied stuff]

God Bless you all!!
Axis, 10.12.2005, 11:43pm #
Almost forgot.
AccursedAtheist said, You're right Axis. NO IMAGINARY beings wrote any of the words in the bible. It's all written by human beings. Some of it's good, morally-sound advice ie.

C.S. Lewis said it best: €œA man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
--C.S. Lewis, British author (1898-1963)

Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander the Great, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, he shed more light on things human and divine than all philosophers and scholars combined; without the eloquence of school, he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, he set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times.
Philip Schaff

€œHere is a man who was born in an obscure village, the Child of a peasant woman. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty, and then for three years He was an itinerant preacher. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never owned a home. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place where He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself. He had nothing to do with this world except the naked power of His Divine manhood. While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a Cross between two thieves. His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth while He was dyingand that was His coat. When He was dead He was taken down and laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend. Such was His human lifeHe rises from the dead. Nineteen wide centuries have come and gone and today He is the Centerpiece of the human race and the Leader of the column of progress. I am within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, and all the navies that ever were built, and all the parliaments that ever sat, and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that One Solitary Life
--James C. Hefley


Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40, and Jesus for only 3. Yet the influence of Christ's 3-year ministry infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men who were among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity. Every day millions read His Word why?
Axis, 09.12.2005, 8:48pm #
Axis said:"Every day millions read His Word why?"

Because like P.T. Barnum said; "There's a sucker born every minute." Because millions are deluded. Just as millions of people who read the quran are. And millions of children who believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. Millions more read their horoscopes too, believing that the stars and planets control their every move. Millions believe in psychics who claim to know their thoughts and futures, and others who amazingly can contact their dead loved ones, even though they can't themselves. Millions more believe taking a little pill will enlarge the size of your penis. Magic bracelets. Homeopathic 'medicine'. 200 mile per gallon fuel additives. Scientology. Unlimited growth in economics. 'Reality' television. Every day this happens. And yet all of the proceeding examples are bullsh*t. It all is meant to loosen your grip on reality and your wallets. It's been going on a long time. It's hard to admit you're being suckered, and it happens to all of us at some time, but that's what religion is, a CON game. The one's who've been suckered aren't likely to admit to being so, and keep bringing in more people, thereby proving to themselves that it must be true - look at all the others who believe - so it must be true. Circular reasoning over and over and over, on a cultural scale.


Go here: http://www.holywar2.com/TheStoryofBob.html





AA
AccursedAtheist, 10.12.2005, 7:12am #
You know, what I always find interesting is how often I see atheist us the word €œbullsh*t I am not sure why atheist get so irritated at times. I don't see a need for such words. Nonetheless, I can see how if you are not suckers, you feel the need to come save us suckers. First, you should know that I am with you on all the above except to some point on the Tooth Fairy, definitely not with you on Santa Claus and not with you on your implied assumption of God being a fairy tale. The Tooth Fairy has never been claimed to be more than a fairy tale. Not sure what point you are tying to make with it.

The Tooth Fairy:
[EDIT: essay about the tooth fairy copied without link or credit]
Santa Claus:
Most atheists, when presented with the argument of God point to the fact that because we (Western Culture) have this Santa Claus, it does not mean that he actually exist, or existed, therefore, just because we think there is this God, it does not mean that it actually exist. Consider the following: Bishop Nicholas of Myra, better known as St. Nicholas come with the first Europeans to arrive in the New World. [EDIT: essay about St. Nicholas copied]
Now, did Santa Claus exist; you bet you pants he did. Have we commercialized his name, sure we have, but he existed. Does he still exist? I would venture to say that his spirit does. Now, I would challenge anyone to prove that St. Nicholas never existed and that his spirit does not exit today.
Also, I must say that I am a little disappointed with you comparison and understanding of terms. Following is a good definition of a fairy tale and other terms you may choose to attribute to God. However, most of the atheist argument I have heard have some merit. The one you just gave about God being a Fairy Tale or even comparing it with a fairly tale; well, that was bad. Anyway, here you go.
[EDIT: definition of fairy tale copied]
God bless you!!!
Axis, 10.12.2005, 11:17pm #
Personally, what I find interesting is that Axis will spend two minutes googling for info on Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, then copy and paste entire chunks of text written by other people without crediting them or providing links. Not very Christian of you, that, doesn't this count as theft?

Axis, I'm editing your comment to remove the copied stuff (just to warn you as I might cut some original stuff by accident)

EDIT: you did it in some earlier comments too. Is anything you've written actually original? If you're going to babble about your faith you could at least do it in your own words. Pack it in, isn't there something in the Bible about not stealing? Somewhere near the back, perhaps.
Ben, 11.12.2005, 12:17am #

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