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Posted by Ben on Sunday, May 21, 2006 | Permalink

Brother Jeff has narrowed his focus to Christianity only in a glorious relaunch!

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"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (Cor. 15:19)"

I don't feel bad for them. I've been ignorant before and ohhh what a wonderful place. Add free altered state experiences during times of meditation and prayer and you got a winner. I can just see Regan and Nancy now, "War on meditation"

Prayer - the gateway drug.
Southside Rabbitslayer, 21.05.2006, 4:35pm #
The fact that radical islamists misinterpret their own sacred text and commit acts of violence is not something to glorify. It's just another reason that we should stay clear of all religion.

I have many muslim friends and they are just as appalled at the violence and bombings as we are. We non-arabs need to get something straight...islam and radical islam are two completely different things. Arab does not mean terrorist, except probably in the internal memos circulated by our current president.

This site is not...christanity is bullshit, it's RELIGION. That means everybody, including the muslims.
theAntiBush, 22.05.2006, 7:13am #
I wouldn't be against a religion that is based on facts. The religions that I have investigated have been based on ignorance and thinking that fiction is fact. The fact is I'm alive and would like to live in peace and have the children of the world inherite something beautiful and nurturing. I fear if illogical religions do not cease to exist man is destined to kill themselves.

Taoism: Shit happens
Hinduism: This shit happened before.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
Zen: What is the sound of shit
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah's Witness: Knock, Knock. "Shit happens."
Agnosticism: I don't know whether shit happens.
Protestantism: Shit won't happen if I work harder.
Satanism: Shit is good.
Catholicism: If shit happens, I deserve it.
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to us?
Scientology: Remember many lives when the shit is clear.
Latter day Saints: The shit is in America.
Baptist: The faith of one and only one shit.

Atheism: Shit is shit.
Southside Rabbitslayer, 22.05.2006, 3:42am #
Maybe more apt-

Atheism: Shit smells and sticks to your shoes.
pinchbeck, 22.05.2006, 11:36am #
I think Brother Jeff has made a good career move. Perhaps he read up on the Danish cartoons controversy and now wears brown trousers.
field, 22.05.2006, 1:47pm #
Antibush - Why would your Muslim friends be appalled by violence and bombings? Mohammed raided innoncent civilians, waged war unceasingly, slaughtered prisoners of war, enslaved women and children, endorsed sexual slavery, and had political opponents assassinated. And he is held up by Muslim scholars as a perfect example to men.

Perhaps what you mean is that your Muslim friends aren't actually proper Muslims.

I am intrigued by your idea that Islam is not the same thing as radical Islam. In what sense do the two differ?

Also - why do you write as though Arab is a synonym for Muslim? There are Christian Arabs and non-Arab Muslims.
field, 22.05.2006, 1:55pm #
Field - I've been reading Jeff's sites for about 5 years and he's not the type to get "brown trousers".
He's always concentrated on Christianity - he was a proper fundy himself for 15 years so he knows what he's on about.

Are non-fundamentalist Christians "proper" Christians?
Tim, 22.05.2006, 3:37pm #
I can understand wanting to tackle the Christian Beast. I'm new here and hate assuming but I'm guessing that this sight is American based. Traveling around the country this past year, I have seen a ficteen zillion crosses on the side of the road and on strategically placed hill tops. Not one star of david, not one of those funny hindu gods, not one picture of our dear dead freak LRHubbard. Christianity is the focus of the country. They have electoral power (Danger Will Robinson.) They are the people praying to keep "In god we trust" on our fucking money. The real question is how do we get people to drop the make believe in favor of fact....
Southside Rabbitslayer, 22.05.2006, 4:01pm #
Tim (webmaster) and Ben - UK

Fundamentalism is fairly rare here, but the country is steeped in Christian tradition. A good article on religion in the UK if you're interested:
Tim, 22.05.2006, 4:17pm #
Presumably Field would also have a pop at Ayaan Hirsi Ali for focusing on Islam and failing to attack Christianity more often. The only alternative is that he's jumped to a conclusion based on his prejudices and surely that's crazy talk. When you've been taken in by something and finally realise it, you don't really appreciate the deceiver's efforts. Hence Jeff and his website, and Hirsi Ali and her campaign. Not that difficult, really.
Ben, 22.05.2006, 6:23pm #
Ben - No I wouldn't criticise her for that, because if I did I would a complete arse seeing that Christianity is no threat to personal freedom in the Netherlands but Islam is.

In the USA there is clearly something of an issue over religion's influence in the political sphere. But it is not all had and Christian individualism remains a firm foundation for liberal democracy everywhere. That's not to say Christianity was in origin democratic or that other faiths can't support democracy, but certainly Islam is competely anti-democratic and anti-personal freedom. It should be the focus of secularists' concern. (I count myself a secularist jsut in case you're wondering).
field, 22.05.2006, 8:45pm #
Well, you had the chance to show some class and admit your suggestion about Jeff's motives were out of line, damn shame you didn't take it.
Ben, 22.05.2006, 9:41pm #
Focussing on Christianity as the great threat to liberty from religion in this day and age is rather like objecting to someone smoking int he trani carriage while furhter down someone is having their throat slit.
field, 22.05.2006, 11:52pm #
Step back in time a little and everyone will look like they're getting there throats cut by religion. The Buddhists cut there own throats. Living in a fantasy world of fictionfact long term will cause situations that do not propagate life. Our greatest asset is our rationality, if we don't use it collectively the future is lost.
Southside Rabbitslayer, 23.05.2006, 12:34am #
Southside -

I would agree that rationality is our greatest gift. But so have many people who support the notion of a creator God. Rationality is not the preserve of atheists or agnostics.
field, 23.05.2006, 1:00am #
I would like to retract rationality as being a gift. Our ancestors worked vary hard for it. Upon further contemplation I think Logic is the word I was looking for. Studding the science of being alive and the universe with rationality. I have concluded that life likes to live. The logical parts of my mind tell me to analyze what threatens me and our hopefully flourishing children. I guess I want to live on through them, although it is more comfortable not taking responsibility for keeping life alive on earth. I have already lived a good life and don't expect anything more. Well maybe "knowing" zero will be nice.
Southside Rabbitslayer, 23.05.2006, 1:15am #
Field, to say that kristianity is less of a threat than izlam shows that you are either a. amazingly uninformed about the rise of fundie-fascism in the US, or b. daft.
pinchbeck, 23.05.2006, 10:09am #
Southside -

There is no real distinction between rationality and logic - logic is just a more formal presentation of rationality. Both logic and rationality depend on our innate pattern-matching abilities. We can spot the difference between two patterns. The difference is clear to us, without any effort. On that basis we have been able to build our rational cultures. Demagogues, ideologues, God botherers, lawyers and tyrants all operate by confusing people as to which patterns are being compared with which.

Pinchbeck -

Tell me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a Christian outfit with 10,000 trained men that
has formally declared war on the USA and is seeking the mass destruction of the USA - something that will make 9/11 look like a school picnic.

Referring to the isolated McVeigh incident and a few nutters in the hills of Montana won't justify your comments by the way.
field, 23.05.2006, 1:08pm #
Actually, while I'm bothering with Field, I do rather like the irony of someone using a pseudonym and a false email address making snide brown trousers remarks about someone who posts his name, contact details and (somewhere!) picture on a website that attacks religious nutters. Not exactly Salman Rushdie, are you?
Ben, 23.05.2006, 8:28pm #
Oh, and care to answer Tim's question while you're at it?
Ben, 23.05.2006, 8:40pm #
What is this - the Spanish inquisition? Anyway, my real email address is too embarrassing to put up here. My daughter chose it. But anyway you can always block me can't you if yuo think I've committed some awful crime?
Furthermore, I never said that people were wrong to invest in a purchase of brown trousers. I ahve a fine pair which I intend to keep on at all times. I was simply pointign out a fact of modern life. Criticise Christ and the worst that might happen to you is you get a nasty letter.
Mock Mohammed and you might get a meat cleaver in your chest.

As for Tim's question, if I've got the right one, then I would answer as follows:

One can talk about Christians as being a range of cultural traditions embracing all varieties. But one can also be more restrictive about what Christ's message was. Would Christ really have approved of say bombing the shit out of Germany in world war two? It seems unlikely to me. But many Christians claimed that they were doing Christ's work. I can't see how they justify that from the holy texts. But there is often a kind of "doublethink" going on.

Some groups claim to be Christian but their doctrines are so far removed from
the original that I think it is probably misleading to include them in the Christian tradition: I am thinking of Mormons, the German Christian movement of the Nazi period and some other fringe groups.

Similarly with Islam - there is a range of traditions, from
Sunni, to Shia, to various fringe groups, which are within the broad current. But some groups with Islamic connections e.g. Bahai have clearly moved outside the tradition. Others, e.g. Druze should probably, like the Mormons among Christians, be placed outside the tradition.

Again, there is the issue of doctrine. Although there may be some Muslims who are clearly part of the tradition and who say that Islam is a religion of peace, that Mohammed did not seek to impose Islam on anyone and who wish to live in brothehood with other religions, but that is certainly not the message of Mohammed as anyone can see from reading the whole of the Koran and the authentic Hadith (stories of his life).
field, 24.05.2006, 12:30am #
One of my first hate mails -

Anonymous said...
After listening to you (I have met you)and reading, I have come to the conclusion that you need help. The kind of help a good christian warrior can provide. You know, we were very good at forcing people to accept our way of thinking.

can't wait to see you again
Southside Rabbitslayer, 24.05.2006, 4:53am #
This has been very interesting.
Field, WTF?
Are you seriously claiming that muslim radicals are more of a threat to civilisation as we know it than the kristian right?

pinchbeck, 24.05.2006, 10:26am #
And don't make out that the bible is full of the loving message of jebus. It's also full of the sort of primitive, tribal, spiteful crap that you'd expect from an occupied, backwards, bunch of Iron Age sheep-herders.

And Hitler was a Catholic, behaving in a historically typical Catholic fashion.
pinchbeck, 24.05.2006, 10:34am #
Pinchbeck -

It's interesting you have to get in your time machine to search for an example to show how nasty Christians can be.

Hitler was not a Catholic in adulthood. He made many statements which make clear he believed he had no Christian beliefs. However, I would accept that in reality many of the ideas of National Socialism - in particular its Jew hatred - was an outgrowth of Christian culture.

The key questions are for now. What is appearing in Saudi children's textbooks now about Jews and Christians being pigs and apes? Who has declared war on the USA and its allies? Who is launching probably 75% of terrorist attacks around the world? Who is aiming to achieve the mass destruction of America and Israel?

It ain't the Cardinals in Rome or prancing preachers of the Baptist South.
field, 24.05.2006, 1:49pm #
Field I suppose you mean Christianity as a whole and not individual Christians. But then it could be argued that it was individual Christians who were responsible for the atrocities years ago and it reflected on Christians as a whole. If that is the case then it is no different now than it was back then, ask the abortion clinic doctors, the children of fundies who are dead because the parent's belief that god would heal their child, the Catholic priests who like to dive into little boy's pants. It's not on a mass scale as the inquisition, true, but times are different now and the church has lost much of it's international power and hold over the rulers of the world so it can't get away with things like that since Luther. I believe that if they did still have that power they would still be doing the things they did back in their day. Now they just try to manipulate politically since violence will get them jail time.

Their is a huge problem with blanket statements, they are not true. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes and so are you. Not all of Islam wishes for the demise of the US. Egyptian muslims don't like our policy towards Israel but they don't call for our demise like the Iranians or Saudis. Not all Persian Muslims want the US destroyed. The huge American muslim population doesn't want themselves destroyed. The ones who want the US destroyed are only different from the Christian theocratic power-mongers (who try to change the US politically and control what we watch, see, say and do) semantically. Both have the same goal, the ultimate control over the people by instituting their religious ideals as law.
JGJ, 24.05.2006, 10:43pm #
And just to add a thought, I suppose one could call these Christians political terrorists since they try to hijack the system. Their are certainly more religious nut cases in Islam willing to give up their life for thier cause but they don't represent the majority Islam and usually only the Wahabi sect. But if you want to throw all muslims into the same pot because of this sect then I can throw all Christians in the pot with anyone who kills in the name of god, and that's a lot of people.
JGJ, 24.05.2006, 10:48pm #
What great news! I thought Hitler was a Nihilist. What a great thing to bring up over tea. Hitler was Catholic! Glory!
Southside Rabbitslayer, 24.05.2006, 11:19pm #

I am not here to defend Christian nutcases, oaedophile priests and all teh rest of it.

I can see that if one sincerely believes abortion to be murder (as most Catholics probably still do) then you might want to stop the murder (in fact you would be morally bound to try). However, that's not my belief so I don't have to defend it.

I think your education on Islam has a little way to go. It is not true to say that only the Wahabis advocate destruction of Israel and America, Jihad, shunning of non-believers, no out marriage for females etc etc. These are beliefs that are common to mainstream Muslims. Wahabism is more about personal puritanism.

When judging a religion (and I believe you can judge them), I think one has to look primarily at the leaders of the religion. Simple folk around the world are generally not the problem. Even the Hutus in Rwanda needed radio broadcasts to encrouage them to murder their Tutsi brothers.

Always look at the leaders. I think if you look at the Mullahs and Imams in Islam you will find that actually yes they do want to see liberal democracy laid low. They all (or nearly all) want Sharia law - a cruel and irrational system - to rule across the whole planet. None of them are very convincing in any condemnations they may utter against Islamic terrorism.

I never suggested the American Muslim population want themselves killed. But it is quite clear from Internet postings that Al Queda has planned attacks for those areas where there are not high concentrations of Muslims. The favourite target is always primarily Jews.
field, 25.05.2006, 12:32am #
Hitler stated more than once that he was Catholic. He even went to church. There's some nice piccys of him doing this, as well as having his arse kissed by the Vatican.

As for my time machine, I tend to judge religions on their past actions, and a few decades of 'nice' does not make up for 1500 of 'shitty'. People can be whipped up into strange frenzies by ideologies, whether political or religious (though the border between the two is often a murky grey), an ability that was not miraculously excised by either WWII or the fall of the Iron Curtain. Facism never goes away, it just hides. And right now I can see it peeking out from behind religious zeal.
pinchbeck, 25.05.2006, 10:34am #
Very illuminating! I'll be adding a link to nobeliefs to my website. Thanks.
Southside Rabbitslayer, 25.05.2006, 4:25pm #
Pinchbeck -

Of course Hitler said he was a Christian (or at least implied he was) and he went to Church on occasions.

He was not a regular church goer. He hated priests and Christian ideology (which of course is, to use Neitzche's phrase, a "religion of slaves" and is also completely non-racist).

He did not believe in any coherent God, only in some vague Providence which he probably thought of as a kind of classical idea, opposed to the Christian notino of a loving father.

I agree past actions are important. But they haven't all been bad on the Christian side. Chirstians have eliminated virtually all institutional slavery in the world.

You have every right in my book to dislike Christians if you so please. The ones I meet at work seem to be among the most self-centred people you could imagine. But if you are weighing hte threats of Christianity and Islam to secular society NOW I think there is no contest.
field, 25.05.2006, 7:57pm #
Killing in spawn isn’t aleowld, but if somebody happens to kill you, can they keep your stuff?
Natalia, 05.02.2012, 12:38am #

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